Post by sundaytaco on Nov 29, 2017 20:01:08 GMT
Welp (no pun intended) Here we are, pre cid Borka2 (B2) was one of my favorite casters in MK3, though granted I've only been playing trolls for about a year now (came from 3 years of circle). I played the new B2 and instantly fell in love *swoon*. You may have seen me posting in the B2 is not a beast caster thread, and I heartily agree! I'm making this thread to pretty much drop battle reports thoughts, musings, and list ideas about the man himself.
From Trollock's suggestion I decided to do a multigame challenge. One of my favorite parts about games that allow deckbuilding/ listbuilding etc is iterative listbuilding. I love playing a game, noting what was missing, playing another game, noting what's missing. etc until the list is where I want it to be.
I guess a good place to start is what I love about B2.
-Countercharge! On him and his BG it's really annoying to mess up opponent's charge lanes or tie up ranged units that walk a little too close or try to back up away from a beast only to get re-engaged. On B2 it's great since he has a very frightening 13" threat range, if you get a counter charge near the end of your opponnent's turn, it's really easy to swinng in for an assasination at his pow 21 meatstick.
-the feat. talk about ballbusting. anti ranged anti melee. It is weak against infantry since they mostly have 1 attack anyway. great against sidestepping/ sprinting infantry and Warnouns. Allows B2 to bully the center of the table or wherever you put him.
-Free animus! Hello, why yes id love to be stead/immune to KD/ stationary/slams or +2def and concealment, thank you for asking. With swarm cast for free, against many things B2 turns into a 16-22 dude. very nontrivial to remove when you play carefully
-That big beatstick. B2 starts at pow 15, but he's really a 21 between free flamin fists (harmonius exaltation), northkin stone, and his enrage thingie.
So the general jist that I love about him is that he is effectivly the best warbeast you could ever want at potentially speed 9 pathfinder repo, impact attacks that KD, assault, boosted charge attacks, incredible def stats the dumbest feat ever. He goes where he wants and is always in his own control area.
So Lets talk about list building ideas originally.
He has Battle Charged (BC). Obviously it's a great spell, So why not max out the effectiveness with lots of beasts right? I ran him in PoD and was sadly diappointed. Though maximum synergy comes in with battle charged, he is forced to spend 1 to upkeep BC which leaves him at 4 and frankly in this them scenario was hard to play. I found myself staying back and bricking up since he had to keep all beasts in his control area. I also have found that fury managment is an issue with a large BG. There is a juxtaposition between how many beasts you can bring ( 4-5 heavies) and how many you can run!
I found myself often having frenzying heavies and when 1 heavy is 1/5 of your relavent activations, this was unsatisfactory. his feat lends to a really strong tide swing but then the turn after half your beasts frenzy, and taht's just no good. I'm coming from circle where I had a really easy time managing fury, but if you are playing B2 and want to keep him really far forward, you probably want 2-3 camp, though 2 is usually fine with positioning, but that means you only can leach 3/2 fury which is almost 1 single heavy.
So here's the pivot. Storm Of the North.
As suggested by trollock, why not throw some cold immune infantry in to tune up his feat?! sure lets try it. I've always wanted to find a place to put the humble kriel warriors, why not here if they are just going to jam. So here emerges the first iteration of B2 with infantry.
conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GiV9DjoiU0hjq6G4k6R0o680l0mezez
Trollbloods Army - 73 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Pyre Troll [8]
- Rok [19]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4]
Troll Whelps [4]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
- Kriel Warrior Standard & Piper [3]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
This was the original list and what i noticed was a few things.
-the battle group was so fast, too fast. They out ran/ walked my kriel warriors because of rush and hunters mark. B2, of course is always speedy, and my intent is for him to spearhead the onslaught and have things support him, but when he can walk/charge for 10, the kriel warriors had to just run to only keep up, assuming none of the front got shot up.
-b2 was 1 defensive stat too easy to kill (later, Swampt troll is added).
-B2 had nothing to dump his fury on due to his immense fury efficiency (free animus and harmonious ex)
-Warbeasts were still frenzying. Sadly between rok and mauler and the axer (casting rush or charging and thresering), one thing was usually frenzying.
-his feat was not as useful as I would like it since the lack of killing warbeasts would jsut have them frenzy anyway... Ideally his feat gives you two turns in a row, where I was observing his feat giving me ~1.2 turns. very little benefit.
-while B2 is strong, he would often have to spend his whole stack to kill a warnoun, and that would leave him with only the option to kill infantry, tag team with a light, or go for caster kills. I want him to be more potent since he has the dankest stat line for a warnoun.
I tried a few different things, but found that the same problems were happeneing. Since the original list I've modified it in several ways (over probably 4 games) to arrive at this list:
Trollbloods Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27]
- Pyre Troll [8]
- Rok [19]
- Swamp Troll [8]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Northkin Shaman [4]
Troll Whelps [4]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
- Kriel Warrior Caber Thrower (3) [6]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
There are a few key changes here
-addition of cabers. Let's be honest. I'd be lying if I said that kriel warrirors do damage. Even with the fell caller's +2 mat, and the northkin stone's+2 str, they still hit very, very averagely. the caber's do two things. Provide a very annoying target on feat turn since they have take up. They also have some punch with pow 13 (15 with stone) cabers that will auto hit the stationary things from feat turn, and potentially getting 2 for 1's with the slam.
-Lynus and Edrea- I've always liked this dynamic duo. They have spunk! they also allow borka to do rude things to enemy warnouns. with allplied Knowledge from Lynus, B2 can pick a destination for his pain train, he can charge (for free) cast flaming fists (for free), impact a warnoun (or two) at p+s 16 with 3 dice for damge, then auto hit, and maybe crit if you feel liek rolling those 3 dice. all of this damge is put into spirit or cortex. B2 repos away, having spent no fury, and can cast swarm for free due to attuned spirit. What is left over is a beast that must stand up and forfiet his movement or action to stand up since it cannot force. Edrea can do 1 of 3 pretty useful things. 1 zephyr lynus to safety, 2 use wind barrier to protect them, or 3 shoot a magic ability 7 arcane bolt with true sight at something (not to shabby!).
-Addition of swamp troll/removal of mauler- I know this is unpopular, but it seems with this list that B2 is just a better mauler haha. The mauler often was unable to get where he wanted to go and the extra heavy was jsut too much fury for the main man (B2). The swamp troll adds a defensive animus (that can be cast for free!). He has natural pathfinder which allows him to occupy space on a table that other troll models typically stay out of. He effectively doesn't occupy space where your other trolls are. I know it's corner case but crit consume is highly effective against trigering effects that happen on destroy and is very good for sniping key models due to having dual attack. Pull is also a real threat for most casters (med base or small base).
northkin stone holy shit- I hadn't considered how F*%#$# effective +1 spd is. Kriel warriors can suddenly keep up, fire eaters walk and spray for 13, B2's threat goes to 13. The most important is the speed on the warriors. now they are able to constantly keep up, and arrive at the line when B2 does. They end at 24'' instead of 20'' from their starting position after two turns of ideal running, and this is huge when I inntend to use these chumpos to wall B2 off from mass infantry/ a heavy blah blah, whichever annoying threat is out there.
I'm still stress testing this list but the most consistant thing i see is that I'm able to bully casters out of where they want to be and prevent a good retaliation in the second round of engaged combat due to his ball busting feat. I have yet to try this against a list with more than 3 enemy heavies, so we will have to see. I really like the amount of units/solos/ WB in here that allow me to be present in scenario (with B2 usually sitting dead center at ~29" area). If you have any thoughts, let me know. Before you ask though, I am not interested in putting a bomber in here unless you havea realllllly good argument. he's a fury sink and doesn't really fit with the idea of the list.
Reading over this, I don't really know what my point is but i'd love to discuss B2. I simply have too much fun playing him. I never feel under threat of assasination and am able to play very aggresively with many things. Let me know what you think maybe if you have ideas about solos and stuff or maybe unit swaps. I don't have northkin raiders yet, but so far im digging the arm 19 on the Warriors. Let's chat
From Trollock's suggestion I decided to do a multigame challenge. One of my favorite parts about games that allow deckbuilding/ listbuilding etc is iterative listbuilding. I love playing a game, noting what was missing, playing another game, noting what's missing. etc until the list is where I want it to be.
I guess a good place to start is what I love about B2.
-Countercharge! On him and his BG it's really annoying to mess up opponent's charge lanes or tie up ranged units that walk a little too close or try to back up away from a beast only to get re-engaged. On B2 it's great since he has a very frightening 13" threat range, if you get a counter charge near the end of your opponnent's turn, it's really easy to swinng in for an assasination at his pow 21 meatstick.
-the feat. talk about ballbusting. anti ranged anti melee. It is weak against infantry since they mostly have 1 attack anyway. great against sidestepping/ sprinting infantry and Warnouns. Allows B2 to bully the center of the table or wherever you put him.
-Free animus! Hello, why yes id love to be stead/immune to KD/ stationary/slams or +2def and concealment, thank you for asking. With swarm cast for free, against many things B2 turns into a 16-22 dude. very nontrivial to remove when you play carefully
-That big beatstick. B2 starts at pow 15, but he's really a 21 between free flamin fists (harmonius exaltation), northkin stone, and his enrage thingie.
So the general jist that I love about him is that he is effectivly the best warbeast you could ever want at potentially speed 9 pathfinder repo, impact attacks that KD, assault, boosted charge attacks, incredible def stats the dumbest feat ever. He goes where he wants and is always in his own control area.
So Lets talk about list building ideas originally.
He has Battle Charged (BC). Obviously it's a great spell, So why not max out the effectiveness with lots of beasts right? I ran him in PoD and was sadly diappointed. Though maximum synergy comes in with battle charged, he is forced to spend 1 to upkeep BC which leaves him at 4 and frankly in this them scenario was hard to play. I found myself staying back and bricking up since he had to keep all beasts in his control area. I also have found that fury managment is an issue with a large BG. There is a juxtaposition between how many beasts you can bring ( 4-5 heavies) and how many you can run!
I found myself often having frenzying heavies and when 1 heavy is 1/5 of your relavent activations, this was unsatisfactory. his feat lends to a really strong tide swing but then the turn after half your beasts frenzy, and taht's just no good. I'm coming from circle where I had a really easy time managing fury, but if you are playing B2 and want to keep him really far forward, you probably want 2-3 camp, though 2 is usually fine with positioning, but that means you only can leach 3/2 fury which is almost 1 single heavy.
So here's the pivot. Storm Of the North.
As suggested by trollock, why not throw some cold immune infantry in to tune up his feat?! sure lets try it. I've always wanted to find a place to put the humble kriel warriors, why not here if they are just going to jam. So here emerges the first iteration of B2 with infantry.
conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GiV9DjoiU0hjq6G4k6R0o680l0mezez
Trollbloods Army - 73 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Pyre Troll [8]
- Rok [19]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4]
Troll Whelps [4]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
- Kriel Warrior Standard & Piper [3]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
This was the original list and what i noticed was a few things.
-the battle group was so fast, too fast. They out ran/ walked my kriel warriors because of rush and hunters mark. B2, of course is always speedy, and my intent is for him to spearhead the onslaught and have things support him, but when he can walk/charge for 10, the kriel warriors had to just run to only keep up, assuming none of the front got shot up.
-b2 was 1 defensive stat too easy to kill (later, Swampt troll is added).
-B2 had nothing to dump his fury on due to his immense fury efficiency (free animus and harmonious ex)
-Warbeasts were still frenzying. Sadly between rok and mauler and the axer (casting rush or charging and thresering), one thing was usually frenzying.
-his feat was not as useful as I would like it since the lack of killing warbeasts would jsut have them frenzy anyway... Ideally his feat gives you two turns in a row, where I was observing his feat giving me ~1.2 turns. very little benefit.
-while B2 is strong, he would often have to spend his whole stack to kill a warnoun, and that would leave him with only the option to kill infantry, tag team with a light, or go for caster kills. I want him to be more potent since he has the dankest stat line for a warnoun.
I tried a few different things, but found that the same problems were happeneing. Since the original list I've modified it in several ways (over probably 4 games) to arrive at this list:
Trollbloods Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27]
- Pyre Troll [8]
- Rok [19]
- Swamp Troll [8]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Northkin Shaman [4]
Troll Whelps [4]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
- Kriel Warrior Caber Thrower (3) [6]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
There are a few key changes here
-addition of cabers. Let's be honest. I'd be lying if I said that kriel warrirors do damage. Even with the fell caller's +2 mat, and the northkin stone's+2 str, they still hit very, very averagely. the caber's do two things. Provide a very annoying target on feat turn since they have take up. They also have some punch with pow 13 (15 with stone) cabers that will auto hit the stationary things from feat turn, and potentially getting 2 for 1's with the slam.
-Lynus and Edrea- I've always liked this dynamic duo. They have spunk! they also allow borka to do rude things to enemy warnouns. with allplied Knowledge from Lynus, B2 can pick a destination for his pain train, he can charge (for free) cast flaming fists (for free), impact a warnoun (or two) at p+s 16 with 3 dice for damge, then auto hit, and maybe crit if you feel liek rolling those 3 dice. all of this damge is put into spirit or cortex. B2 repos away, having spent no fury, and can cast swarm for free due to attuned spirit. What is left over is a beast that must stand up and forfiet his movement or action to stand up since it cannot force. Edrea can do 1 of 3 pretty useful things. 1 zephyr lynus to safety, 2 use wind barrier to protect them, or 3 shoot a magic ability 7 arcane bolt with true sight at something (not to shabby!).
-Addition of swamp troll/removal of mauler- I know this is unpopular, but it seems with this list that B2 is just a better mauler haha. The mauler often was unable to get where he wanted to go and the extra heavy was jsut too much fury for the main man (B2). The swamp troll adds a defensive animus (that can be cast for free!). He has natural pathfinder which allows him to occupy space on a table that other troll models typically stay out of. He effectively doesn't occupy space where your other trolls are. I know it's corner case but crit consume is highly effective against trigering effects that happen on destroy and is very good for sniping key models due to having dual attack. Pull is also a real threat for most casters (med base or small base).
northkin stone holy shit- I hadn't considered how F*%#$# effective +1 spd is. Kriel warriors can suddenly keep up, fire eaters walk and spray for 13, B2's threat goes to 13. The most important is the speed on the warriors. now they are able to constantly keep up, and arrive at the line when B2 does. They end at 24'' instead of 20'' from their starting position after two turns of ideal running, and this is huge when I inntend to use these chumpos to wall B2 off from mass infantry/ a heavy blah blah, whichever annoying threat is out there.
I'm still stress testing this list but the most consistant thing i see is that I'm able to bully casters out of where they want to be and prevent a good retaliation in the second round of engaged combat due to his ball busting feat. I have yet to try this against a list with more than 3 enemy heavies, so we will have to see. I really like the amount of units/solos/ WB in here that allow me to be present in scenario (with B2 usually sitting dead center at ~29" area). If you have any thoughts, let me know. Before you ask though, I am not interested in putting a bomber in here unless you havea realllllly good argument. he's a fury sink and doesn't really fit with the idea of the list.
Reading over this, I don't really know what my point is but i'd love to discuss B2. I simply have too much fun playing him. I never feel under threat of assasination and am able to play very aggresively with many things. Let me know what you think maybe if you have ideas about solos and stuff or maybe unit swaps. I don't have northkin raiders yet, but so far im digging the arm 19 on the Warriors. Let's chat
