wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Nov 30, 2017 13:40:43 GMT
Well, that works!
Let me tell you, she is fun as hell! There is nothing quite like loading up on 10 souls and killing the enemy caster, no matter where ever they are on the board!
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 30, 2017 14:04:51 GMT
First off, welcome to Warmachine and Hordes! While the others didn't say it, we are all glad you decided to get in on this game. Second, welcome to Khador! While all of the factions have their strengths and weaknesses, Khador is a great faction. Your initial interest in The Old Witch of Khador is... interesting. She and Scrapjack are neat models, and will be fun to paint, but they are not exactly "new player material" to learn the game with. For casual play with friends where you are just looking to have fun, she will certainly be interesting. If you decide to get into the competitive aspects of the game and play Steam Roller scenarios to prepare for Steam Roller tournaments The Old Witch is not exactly the best pick - a lot of players have had a lot more success with many of the other warcasters in Khador's stable. But hey, you may be different, which is just fine. So, what are the kind of things you want to be able to do in the game? What aspects of the game and / or the background really appeal to you? Knowing that will help us help you find the right things to start getting for the game. The Prime book and the command book will be great things to buy, but not necessary. The command book will be a great starter for background on Khador, but the rules for the individual people and things can be found in the Card Database and printed for free or in the Warroom 2 app if you decide to pay. The Prime book will be a good read, but there will be some minor rules updates that have occurred that will make the book a little out of date. Game Rules and Errata is a great place to hit for all of the up-to-date rules, and it is free to download. Instead of buying the Prime book I suggest instead that you buy the Khador-battlegroup-starter-box for Khador. It comes with it's very own digest-sized copy of the rulebook, Lord Kozlov is a great starting warcaster for learning the game with, and you can branch out from him to other warcasters (like The Old Witch) after you get a better feel for the game. Welcome! The things I want to be able to do are basically have fun playing a miniatures wargame. While OW1(this is the correct abbreviation?) may not be the most competitive war caster, I bought the model because I think it will look good when painted and the box art looked awesome. That being said, I've had a great time building them and they are now primed ready to paint, so I'll likely be picking up a War Dog next week along with my prime or Khador-battlegroup-starter-box. The feel of different factions being at war in a future with giant stompy robots(for lack of a better word) was what drew me in to begin with after selling out of 40k for unrelated reasons. This game seems a little more rules-heavy and less lore-driven than 40k was, and that was also part of the appeal. Well, from your responses it sounds like you have a good plan for getting into the game. There is some lore-driven aspect to the rules in Warmachine, but instead of being in the main rules they are in the rules for the individual models / units. Back in the first edition of Warmachine (referred to as Mk1) it was *very* lore-driven and a pretty bad mess, but the transition to the second edition of the game (referred to as Mk2) a lot of that was streamlined and standardized, with some additional tweeking in the transition into the current Mk3. I think that you'll find the rules for Warmachine a lot more solid and playtested than what you saw in 40K. Games of Warmachine require you to have an army to go with your warcaster - you can't play just your warcaster. All warcasters come with "Warjack Points" that are free points you can put towards the warjacks that accompany your warcaster and form the core "battlegroup" of your army. The smallest game you can play is a 0 points game (often called a "battlebox game"), meaning you only have your warcaster and the warjacks that are bought with your Warjack Points. A "battlebox game" is very easy to do with the Khador-battlegroup-starter-box (as well as the other battlegroup-starter-boxes for all of the other factions) because Lord Kozlov's 28 Warjack Points are used to buy the 12-point Juggernaut and the 16-point Decimator that come in the Khador-battlegroup-starter-box. For The Old Witch to play a 0 point "battlebox game" you will need to get 18 points of warjacks (in addition to the Scrapjack, which comes for free with The Old witch) to go with her. You could either get a single Grolar warjack (which you can make with the Grolar / Kodiak kit) for 18 points or 2 of the Berserker warjacks (which you can make from 2 of the Berserker / Mad Dog / Rager kits) for 9 points each. The Grolar is a very capable all around useful warjack while the Berserkers are moderately capable melee warjacks. (I'd recommend the Grolar for price considerations and usefulness.) If you want to take the War Dog in your game you will need to take some warjacks, infantry units, and / or solos to come up to some point total above 0, such as 15, 25, 35, or more points. A good, flexible start to doing this would be the Winter Guard Infantry and Rocketeers kit. You could take you "battlebox game" army, a 10-man unit of infantry and a Rocketeer (or a 6-man unit of infantry and 3 Rocketeers) for 12 points, and your War Dog for 3 points to make a 15 point "Winter Guard Kommand" theme army. Instead of the Winter Guard another option would be to take an 8-point Widowmakers (sniper unit) and a 4-point Manhunter (melee assassin) to go with your War Dog to make a 15 point "Jaws of the Wolf" theme army. If you use Lord Kozlov and his 28 points of warjacks for this theme army you would qualify to take a free Greylord Forge Seer (battle wizard), another Manhunter (variant), or Yuri the Axe (character Manhunter) as a benefit of the theme army. These are just initial suggestions, there are a lot of possibilities - I just wanted you to know that if you wanted to take your Old Witch and the War Dog that have caught your attention you will need to buy other models to field a rules-legal army. Let us know if other stuff looks interesting instead, we can help you figure out your first steps.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Nov 30, 2017 16:50:36 GMT
It's been a while, but if I recall correctly, "Lore-driven" is GW speak for "We don't care about game balance." I won't argue that Warmachine and Hordes competes with WHFB or WH40K in terms of sheer weight of fluff, but I'm personally of the opinion that good lore and good rules are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 30, 2017 17:53:49 GMT
not not mutually exclusive. I honestly am not sure if this is a typo or not.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 30, 2017 19:59:34 GMT
not not mutually exclusive. I honestly am not sure if this is a typo or not. **Richard Attenborough Voice.** Now here we see the elusive double negative. It's a small and easily misunderstood creature. It is capable of hiding in a sentence and being overlooked rather easily. It hunts on poor souls who get easily confused and it take a very good eye in order to find its carefully hidden burrows.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Nov 30, 2017 21:50:57 GMT
I may have done that subconsciously.
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Post by jmabry on Dec 1, 2017 5:11:50 GMT
The things I want to be able to do are basically have fun playing a miniatures wargame. While OW1(this is the correct abbreviation?) may not be the most competitive war caster, I bought the model because I think it will look good when painted and the box art looked awesome. That being said, I've had a great time building them and they are now primed ready to paint, so I'll likely be picking up a War Dog next week along with my prime or Khador-battlegroup-starter-box. The feel of different factions being at war in a future with giant stompy robots(for lack of a better word) was what drew me in to begin with after selling out of 40k for unrelated reasons. This game seems a little more rules-heavy and less lore-driven than 40k was, and that was also part of the appeal. Well, from your responses it sounds like you have a good plan for getting into the game. There is some lore-driven aspect to the rules in Warmachine, but instead of being in the main rules they are in the rules for the individual models / units. Back in the first edition of Warmachine (referred to as Mk1) it was *very* lore-driven and a pretty bad mess, but the transition to the second edition of the game (referred to as Mk2) a lot of that was streamlined and standardized, with some additional tweeking in the transition into the current Mk3. I think that you'll find the rules for Warmachine a lot more solid and playtested than what you saw in 40K. Games of Warmachine require you to have an army to go with your warcaster - you can't play just your warcaster. All warcasters come with "Warjack Points" that are free points you can put towards the warjacks that accompany your warcaster and form the core "battlegroup" of your army. The smallest game you can play is a 0 points game (often called a "battlebox game"), meaning you only have your warcaster and the warjacks that are bought with your Warjack Points. A "battlebox game" is very easy to do with the Khador-battlegroup-starter-box (as well as the other battlegroup-starter-boxes for all of the other factions) because Lord Kozlov's 28 Warjack Points are used to buy the 12-point Juggernaut and the 16-point Decimator that come in the Khador-battlegroup-starter-box. For The Old Witch to play a 0 point "battlebox game" you will need to get 18 points of warjacks (in addition to the Scrapjack, which comes for free with The Old witch) to go with her. You could either get a single Grolar warjack (which you can make with the Grolar / Kodiak kit) for 18 points or 2 of the Berserker warjacks (which you can make from 2 of the Berserker / Mad Dog / Rager kits) for 9 points each. The Grolar is a very capable all around useful warjack while the Berserkers are moderately capable melee warjacks. (I'd recommend the Grolar for price considerations and usefulness.) If you want to take the War Dog in your game you will need to take some warjacks, infantry units, and / or solos to come up to some point total above 0, such as 15, 25, 35, or more points. A good, flexible start to doing this would be the Winter Guard Infantry and Rocketeers kit. You could take you "battlebox game" army, a 10-man unit of infantry and a Rocketeer (or a 6-man unit of infantry and 3 Rocketeers) for 12 points, and your War Dog for 3 points to make a 15 point "Winter Guard Kommand" theme army. Instead of the Winter Guard another option would be to take an 8-point Widowmakers (sniper unit) and a 4-point Manhunter (melee assassin) to go with your War Dog to make a 15 point "Jaws of the Wolf" theme army. If you use Lord Kozlov and his 28 points of warjacks for this theme army you would qualify to take a free Greylord Forge Seer (battle wizard), another Manhunter (variant), or Yuri the Axe (character Manhunter) as a benefit of the theme army. These are just initial suggestions, there are a lot of possibilities - I just wanted you to know that if you wanted to take your Old Witch and the War Dog that have caught your attention you will need to buy other models to field a rules-legal army. Let us know if other stuff looks interesting instead, we can help you figure out your first steps. I actually picked up a Yuri, The Axe today, and plan to grab a Grolar and two Manhunters next week. As they looked fun, and the stats of OW1 didn't scream "Buy warjacks" to me, but they are manditory to play the game. Which would bring my army up to the following: Warcaster: The Old Witch of Khador(17/75 points, 18/18 warjack points) Scrapjack - 0 Points(included with old witch) War Dog - 3 Points Grolar - 18 Points(all of OW1 warjack points) Yuri the Axe - 6 Points Manhunter - 4 Points Manhunter 2(Variant Sculpt)- 4 Points
I guess the Follow-up question now is: With those models being non-negotiably in the army(I will magnetize the Grolar, so a Kodiak could be negotiable), what else would you all recommend to go with that? The variant scult manhunter is because my LGS has one regular manhunter and one variant sculpt and I happen to like being able to tell them apart anyhow.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 1, 2017 5:24:10 GMT
By at least one Warjack multi-kit and magnetise it; Old Witch might not be the best jack caster around, but she still has Field Marshal: Apparition, so she isn't too bad. Plus that will allow you to swap warcasters when you feel like it since you'll be able to fill up your warjack points.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Dec 1, 2017 9:12:05 GMT
Given the direction your initial purchases are going (which is strongly towards a Jaws of the Wolf theme list) I would recommend: - 2 x Kayazy Eliminator units
- 1 x Widowmaker Scouts unit
- 1 x Widowmaker Marksman solo
They are all small units/solos that will not only fit the list you've started but will also be generally useful in other lists a lot of the time. For me, that'd lead on to a full Kayazy Assassin unit (be sure to get the Underboss unit attachment at the same time). Otherwise, get some plastic jack kits as and when you can. Khador can run lots of jacks well with a few casters, but basically any list you write will find a good use for a couple of juggernauts or a destroyer. Most importantly, if none of those models look fun to paint or play for you personally, ignore everything I said and get what looks cool to you! Cheers, Dave
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Post by AdeptusB on Dec 1, 2017 20:22:57 GMT
Back in early MkIII, people were freaking out about Wurmwood's Feat turn (basically, most of the board becomes forest); it seemed to me that Old Witch could provide a good counter to that, so I came up with this (pre-Themes) list. It's more Fluffy than Competitive, but it has enough tricks that it shouldn't be hopeless. I never actually played it, though, so caveat emptor:
75 Points- OLD WITCH & SCRAPJACK +18 Warcaster and Character Light Warjack -Grolar –18 Heavy Warjack -Kodiak -13 Heavy Warjack Winter Guard Rifle Corps [10] -13 Unit -Rocketeers x2 -4 Weapon Attachment Kossite Woodsmen [10] -11 Unit Greylord Outriders [5] -20 Unit Manhunters x2 -8 Solos Yuri the Axe -6 Character Solo
Yuri's so expensive that I feel the need to include both Kossites and Manhunters to get maximum use out of his Treewalker ability. Between that and Weald Secrets on the WGRC (I wish I could squeeze out the points for one more Rocketeer!), everyone has Pathfinder, which opens up some fun tactical options.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 2, 2017 5:19:32 GMT
By at least one Warjack multi-kit and magnetise it; Old Witch might not be the best jack caster around, but she still has Field Marshal: Apparition, so she isn't too bad. Plus that will allow you to swap warcasters when you feel like it since you'll be able to fill up your warjack points. And don't forget that there are some jacks which don't need much focus to work well. These jacks are useful with almost any caster. In Khador that is: - Marauder - a single Focus to charge and use the Combo-Smite attack, or simply walk into combat and Combo-Smite with a boosted hit or damage roll;
- Kodiak - single focus to charge. Two fist attacks can then be followed up with a Grab and Smash chain attack (for free), letting you throw a model.
Many other jacks require quite a bit of Focus investment to do their jobs well (Juggernaut and Grolar, for example) - they're good, but more resource intensive. In the Jaws of the Wolf Theme (where recommended choices seem to be taking you), these low-Focus jacks are useful, both for increasing the points spent on jacks (which then gives you solos for free) and because they can contribute meaningfully without draining your caster too much.
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Post by jmabry on Dec 2, 2017 6:37:15 GMT
By at least one Warjack multi-kit and magnetise it; Old Witch might not be the best jack caster around, but she still has Field Marshal: Apparition, so she isn't too bad. Plus that will allow you to swap warcasters when you feel like it since you'll be able to fill up your warjack points. And don't forget that there are some jacks which don't need much focus to work well. These jacks are useful with almost any caster. In Khador that is: - Marauder - a single Focus to charge and use the Combo-Smite attack, or simply walk into combat and Combo-Smite with a boosted hit or damage roll;
- Kodiak - single focus to charge. Two fist attacks can then be followed up with a Grab and Smash chain attack (for free), letting you throw a model.
Many other jacks require quite a bit of Focus investment to do their jobs well (Juggernaut and Grolar, for example) - they're good, but more resource intensive. In the Jaws of the Wolf Theme (where recommended choices seem to be taking you), these low-Focus jacks are useful, both for increasing the points spent on jacks (which then gives you solos for free) and because they can contribute meaningfully without draining your caster too much. The Kodiak is in the same kit as the Grolar, correct? So my magnetized Grolar with be able to change into a Kodiak. I suppose 1 Kodiak, 1 Marauder for 22 jack points, wouldn't be terrible, since I'm not fielding anything else right now anyway, and may even be a better option than the Grolar(To be determined, but It seems like it'd work for the time being at least. And these recommended units do seem to be moving in the direction of the Jaws of the Wolf theme, but it seems to be the direction the models I already liked would have eventually taken me anyway, so that's okay. I think Kodiak + Kodiak gives me a free solo(which would be used on Yuri the Axe). So of thoese options, which would be better? Option 1:(total of 18 WJ points, 8 army points) 2 Kodiak Free Yuri
Option 2:(total of 18 WJ points, 11 army points 1 Kodiak 1 Marauder pay for Yuri Option 3:(total of 18 WJ points, 6 army points) 1 Grolar pay for Yuri
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Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 2, 2017 8:10:26 GMT
Well, if you're talking competitively, probably option 1. But in terms of growing your Khador collection in a way that gives you options and a taste of what the different models do, I still recommend picking up a Juggernaut-based warjack kit; then you could pick a Juggernaut or Destroyer instead of the second Kodiak and still get Yuri for free. I don't think Old Witch is quite so focus starved that she can't manage anything but Kodiaks and Marauders. So I vote for option 2 (or 2.5: Kodiak, Juggernaut, free Yuri).
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Post by borderprince on Dec 2, 2017 8:47:56 GMT
I don't think Old Witch is quite so focus starved that she can't manage anything but Kodiaks and Marauders. So I vote for option 2 (or 2.5: Kodiak, Juggernaut, free Yuri). I'd agree with that - Juggernaut + Kodiak is almost always a solid basis for jacks in a list. And any caster can afford to fully load 1 Juggernaut when the game requires it. The Juggernaut is probably the best anti-heavy jack in the game (especially for its points), and is never a bad inclusion. It's an even better option in small games, where there are relatively few models and most of them are quite tough. It's once you've got a Juggernaut, Grolar or something else that can be a focus hog (and maybe another jack) that the more focus-efficient jacks become important in list building. I wouldn't suggest only taking Kodiaks and Marauders as your hitting power will be too low.
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Post by jmabry on Dec 3, 2017 5:24:03 GMT
I don't think Old Witch is quite so focus starved that she can't manage anything but Kodiaks and Marauders. So I vote for option 2 (or 2.5: Kodiak, Juggernaut, free Yuri). I'd agree with that - Juggernaut + Kodiak is almost always a solid basis for jacks in a list. And any caster can afford to fully load 1 Juggernaut when the game requires it. The Juggernaut is probably the best anti-heavy jack in the game (especially for its points), and is never a bad inclusion. It's an even better option in small games, where there are relatively few models and most of them are quite tough. It's once you've got a Juggernaut, Grolar or something else that can be a focus hog (and maybe another jack) that the more focus-efficient jacks become important in list building. I wouldn't suggest only taking Kodiaks and Marauders as your hitting power will be too low. So, Kodiak(in the Grolar kit that I already want) plus whatever is in the kit with the juggernaut will give me enough to get my free solo(Yuri), and that'll give me some magnetized jacks for when I inevitably want some sort of change from OW1. At this point, my models that I actually own are as follows: OW1 & Scrapjack Yuri War Dog Manhunter Manhunter(Variant Sculpt) So my next purchase has to get me a warjack or two, because I'm at 17 army points there with no warjacks. The Grolar kit once magnetized will have me at a(technically) legal army, and give me some time to get that kit with the Marauder(probably fielded as a Juggernaut). The units that drew my interest initially have all been purchased(OW1 and War Dog), and next after the warjack is a prime(I saw the digest size ones from the battle box, and it was too small and too "pocket sized" for my tastes). Anyone have thoughts on how to proceed after this point beyond the Kayazy Eliminators and Widowmaker stuff? Those looked interesting(Thank you to whomever suggested those).
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