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Ashlynn 2
Dec 9, 2017 14:36:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by magnetos on Dec 9, 2017 14:36:35 GMT
The end justifies the means
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Ashlynn 2
Dec 9, 2017 14:53:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by Charistoph on Dec 9, 2017 14:53:54 GMT
Makes tons of sense to have necromancers in The Resistance, honestly. They're desperate, and I wouldn't be surprised if that desperation caused Gastonne to make some dark choices. But how many "Undead" factions does Warmachine/Hordes need? We have Cryx, we have Blindwater, even Grymkin could be considered undead. While having masses of expendable bodies to throw at your enemy is a viable tactic. I would prefer if they went to some other faction for aid and not have mini Cryx. Again, Mercs have Alexia, who was the impetous behind creating the Iron Kingdoms, so we've always had that "mini-Cryx" aspect, even before Cryx was a thing. And it wouldn't surprise any of us to see a Llaelese Cryx Partisan come out at a similar time as a crazed Ashlynn2. Considering how many times the story has upended itself (such as a certain Trollblood losing an axe he could never get rid of), I wouldn't hold my breath on so many plausible concepts being denied. Honestly, the only things I can say for certain is that Ashlynn2 would not be a Partisan: Khador model or a Partisan: Hordes model. Aside from that, almost any direction has some possibility (though some are much less likely than others).
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Dec 9, 2017 15:00:34 GMT
Makes tons of sense to have necromancers in The Resistance, honestly. They're desperate, and I wouldn't be surprised if that desperation caused Gastonne to make some dark choices. But how many "Undead" factions does Warmachine/Hordes need? We have Cryx, we have Blindwater, even Grymkin could be considered undead. While having masses of expendable bodies to throw at your enemy is a viable tactic. I would prefer if they went to some other faction for aid and not have mini Cryx The concept of the temptation of power is not exclusive to Cryx (arguably much of cryx has the influence forced on them anyways). One the themes of Dark magic is desperation, and the Resistance is definitely desperate. It would be very cool to see some dark magic influences in the faction, not just in the form of necromancy but also mesmerism and maybe even infernalism. And, to be fair, soul magic isn't necessarily exclusive to necromancy anyhow. Gastonne may have made a very dark pact with some very dangerous fellows.
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Post by april on Dec 9, 2017 17:58:11 GMT
But how many "Undead" factions does Warmachine/Hordes need? We have Cryx, we have Blindwater, even Grymkin could be considered undead. While having masses of expendable bodies to throw at your enemy is a viable tactic. I would prefer if they went to some other faction for aid and not have mini Cryx. Again, Mercs have Alexia, who was the impetous behind creating the Iron Kingdoms, so we've always had that "mini-Cryx" aspect, even before Cryx was a thing. And it wouldn't surprise any of us to see a Llaelese Cryx Partisan come out at a similar time as a crazed Ashlynn2. Considering how many times the story has upended itself (such as a certain Trollblood losing an axe he could never get rid of), I wouldn't hold my breath on so many plausible concepts being denied. Honestly, the only things I can say for certain is that Ashlynn2 would not be a Partisan: Khador model or a Partisan: Hordes model. Aside from that, almost any direction has some possibility (though some are much less likely than others). The World Ender plot... personally I think he should have died. And allow a certain female Troll to take over. So Alexia... I have Major issues with her, Pendrake, and the other book characters crossing over into the game. Yes she's there, but she really should not be (in my opinion) Yes she was the "Reason" for the game. But she fits better into the RPG. Really hope they don't go that route because why not just give everyone undead.. Well talking of Infernalism I had heard before the taster with the Celephax that some Daemon. Hordes fraction was kinda planned as the Retribution were for Warmachine. If Llael go that way fine. I just think they can do something other than undead.
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Post by gobber on Dec 9, 2017 19:36:31 GMT
I'd be down with Llaelese necromancers, but nicolene's feat in high command seems more like a "gain strength from the souls of the resistance martyrs" effect (see pg3 of this thread, basically Zaal1 feat). Lifeguard seems to go the same way; valuing the sacrifice more than raising them from the dead. Generally seems more akin to mortitheurgy, morrowan, and menite magics.
borderprince was saying earlier he'd appreciate last stand in mercs which is more appropriate for llaelese desperation. There are a bunch of other effects in this line... -vengeance effects -soul reclamation -dark rituals arc nodes (though that might be a fiona2 thing) -defensive effects like lifeguard: -roth's mercy fits as well -as would a "target unit gains self-sacrifice" upkeep (from errants) -call to sacrifice fits the theme. Sacrificial pawn wouldn't.
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Ashlynn 2
Dec 9, 2017 23:17:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by Charistoph on Dec 9, 2017 23:17:53 GMT
Again, Mercs have Alexia, who was the impetous behind creating the Iron Kingdoms, so we've always had that "mini-Cryx" aspect, even before Cryx was a thing. And it wouldn't surprise any of us to see a Llaelese Cryx Partisan come out at a similar time as a crazed Ashlynn2. Considering how many times the story has upended itself (such as a certain Trollblood losing an axe he could never get rid of), I wouldn't hold my breath on so many plausible concepts being denied. Honestly, the only things I can say for certain is that Ashlynn2 would not be a Partisan: Khador model or a Partisan: Hordes model. Aside from that, almost any direction has some possibility (though some are much less likely than others). The World Ender plot... personally I think he should have died. And allow a certain female Troll to take over. So Alexia... I have Major issues with her, Pendrake, and the other book characters crossing over into the game. Yes she's there, but she really should not be (in my opinion) Yes she was the "Reason" for the game. But she fits better into the RPG. Really hope they don't go that route because why not just give everyone undead.. Well talking of Infernalism I had heard before the taster with the Celephax that some Daemon. Hordes fraction was kinda planned as the Retribution were for Warmachine. If Llael go that way fine. I just think they can do something other than undead. None of us are saying that Llael will go full necromancy, just that some members have and will turn to darker arts to complete the objectives of their motives. The more desperate a person feels, the more likely they will accept options they previously would have rejected. Crosse using his soul gun and accepting the dark burden is one example of this situation. Ashlynn2 being created when is being burned by Winter Guard under the direction of an Old Faith priest and being rescued by a Protectorate big wig would be a possible situation where she might become a Partisan: Protectorate model. Where as currently she is just as likely to gut some Deliverers as lead them. I don't think that would happen, personally, I was just taking Ashlynn2 in a direction that would justify her mini-Cryx model and make a certain Protectorate Warcaster jealous. As it is, the human Mercenaries are a very diverse group, and are to represent the outcast and the greedy. Necromancers, Thamarites, and Infernals all fit in that category so it should be no surprise to see them represented in the Mercenary list, and some of them will be either desperate or greedy Llaelese.
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Post by april on Dec 10, 2017 20:22:03 GMT
The World Ender plot... personally I think he should have died. And allow a certain female Troll to take over. So Alexia... I have Major issues with her, Pendrake, and the other book characters crossing over into the game. Yes she's there, but she really should not be (in my opinion) Yes she was the "Reason" for the game. But she fits better into the RPG. Really hope they don't go that route because why not just give everyone undead.. Well talking of Infernalism I had heard before the taster with the Celephax that some Daemon. Hordes fraction was kinda planned as the Retribution were for Warmachine. If Llael go that way fine. I just think they can do something other than undead. None of us are saying that Llael will go full necromancy, just that some members have and will turn to darker arts to complete the objectives of their motives. The more desperate a person feels, the more likely they will accept options they previously would have rejected. Crosse using his soul gun and accepting the dark burden is one example of this situation. Ashlynn2 being created when is being burned by Winter Guard under the direction of an Old Faith priest and being rescued by a Protectorate big wig would be a possible situation where she might become a Partisan: Protectorate model. Where as currently she is just as likely to gut some Deliverers as lead them. I don't think that would happen, personally, I was just taking Ashlynn2 in a direction that would justify her mini-Cryx model and make a certain Protectorate Warcaster jealous. As it is, the human Mercenaries are a very diverse group, and are to represent the outcast and the greedy. Necromancers, Thamarites, and Infernals all fit in that category so it should be no surprise to see them represented in the Mercenary list, and some of them will be either desperate or greedy Llaelese. There's also a possibility of her being rescued by The circle and pledging herself to the Devourer.. Or selling her soul to the Grymkin. But it wouldn't fit. Her Ashes to Ashes sculpt really makes me think... well Protectorate or Infernal is more likely. We're also forgetting Toruk and his blight are not easy things to live with... Her staying a Merc would not happen and her 4th incarnation would be full Cryx... and there's no Elven god to purify her... and casters switching whats next Severius becoming a priest of Marrow? Infernalism isn't really touched on in the game a mini Infernal resistance theme would be awesome. She has saved the kingdom but at what cost??... LLael having the odd Necromancer fine ( as long as it fits.. but it needs to be done so we don't get Cryx 2.0 or alexia v2 warcaster bugaloo ) or pulling Reclaimer type shenanigans equally okay.. I'm only saying this because LLael is a nation I really like and is just the whipping boy of everyone else... Cant we have something new is all I'm asking.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 11, 2017 0:27:52 GMT
There's also a possibility of her being rescued by The circle and pledging herself to the Devourer.. Or selling her soul to the Grymkin. But it wouldn't fit. Her Ashes to Ashes sculpt really makes me think... well Protectorate or Infernal is more likely. For the Circle, she would need to go through the Wilding. While it is possible that older people do go through it at an older age, it is extremely rare, and I haven't heard of any Warcasters going through it. Grymkin is a possibility, but let's face it, she'd have to get on board with the Witch of Khador, and it is far more likely that she would learn Mortitheurgy before getting on board with her. We're also forgetting Toruk and his blight are not easy things to live with... Her staying a Merc would not happen and her 4th incarnation would be full Cryx... and there's no Elven god to purify her... and casters switching whats next Severius becoming a priest of Marrow? Well, we did have a Cygnar Warcaster turn Cryx..., so possible, but not likely. To me, it just seems too soon. LLael having the odd Necromancer fine ( as long as it fits.. but it needs to be done so we don't get Cryx 2.0 or alexia v2 warcaster bugaloo ) or pulling Reclaimer type shenanigans equally okay.. Just considering avenues of approach, and the likelihood of possibilities. I'm only saying this because LLael is a nation I really like and is just the whipping boy of everyone else... Cant we have something new is all I'm asking. A Partisan: Protectorate Warcster isn't something new? It would be more new than Ashlynn just being upgraded like 98% of the Epic Warcasters out there.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Dec 11, 2017 3:45:09 GMT
I'd be happy to draw it on a map for you, but every map we've been able to get a hold of lately just has three big circles labeled "Old Khador" "New Khador" and "Future Khador". How Western Immoren Looks to Khador
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Dec 11, 2017 4:33:13 GMT
I'm only saying this because LLael is a nation I really like and is just the whipping boy of everyone else... Cant we have something new is all I'm asking. Why would it? Narratively speaking, a whipping boy is fairly clearly and obviously it's intended purpose both from an authorial and fluff perspective. It mimics Belgium/Poland in real life terms, in the IK it's somewhat explicit as an artificial construction to take from the Khards, split the Umbreans (Though that may have been incidental) and be int eh way of Cygnar getting attacked. Frankly, I think Llael gets to much stuff. Ord should get more attention out of the buffer states. Though really, isn't what we all want just less Cygnar stuff? All my subjective view obviously.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 11, 2017 6:52:38 GMT
It mimics Belgium/Poland in real life terms, in the IK it's somewhat explicit as an artificial construction to take from the Khards, split the Umbreans (Though that may have been incidental) and be int eh way of Cygnar getting attacked.Frankly, I think Llael gets to much stuff. Ord should get more attention out of the buffer states. I get the Llael as Belgium/Poland, but actually I think it's increasingly being set up as Italy c.1500 - Llael is where all the serious powers go to play soldiers, without threatening the homeland. Ord might be coming...eventually. If Cygnar really does give Ord better cortices, one of the limiting factors for Ord to play in Warmachine (limited warjacks) disappears. They're still apparently short of warcasters, but that's not the end of the world. They've got some mercs they can call on - even if they're not patriotic, Baird can just pay them. Bringing Ord in as a full major player might be tricky, but if the Ordic forces are presented more as those involved in border skirmishes, rather than a full on "Ord and Khador at war!" plot, that could fit in easily. It's quite plausible that Ordic support for the Order of the Golden Crucible (and by extension, the Crucible Guard) might aggravate Khador enough to engage in small incursions to try and remind Ord not to go too far. Add in renewed Cryxian fleet activity and you've got Ord vs 2 of the main factions. That kind of approach might work better in Mk3, which no longer tries to tie releases to an overarching plot with major effects on the fluff.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 11, 2017 7:43:05 GMT
It mimics Belgium/Poland in real life terms, in the IK it's somewhat explicit as an artificial construction to take from the Khards, split the Umbreans (Though that may have been incidental) and be int eh way of Cygnar getting attacked.Frankly, I think Llael gets to much stuff. Ord should get more attention out of the buffer states. I get the Llael as Belgium/Poland, but actually I think it's increasingly being set up as Italy c.1500 - Llael is where all the serious powers go to play soldiers, without threatening the homeland. Ord might be coming...eventually. If Cygnar really does give Ord better cortices, one of the limiting factors for Ord to play in Warmachine (limited warjacks) disappears. They're still apparently short of warcasters, but that's not the end of the world. They've got some mercs they can call on - even if they're not patriotic, Baird can just pay them. Bringing Ord in as a full major player might be tricky, but if the Ordic forces are presented more as those involved in border skirmishes, rather than a full on "Ord and Khador at war!" plot, that could fit in easily. It's quite plausible that Ordic support for the Order of the Golden Crucible (and by extension, the Crucible Guard) might aggravate Khador enough to engage in small incursions to try and remind Ord not to go too far. Add in renewed Cryxian fleet activity and you've got Ord vs 2 of the main factions. That kind of approach might work better in Mk3, which no longer tries to tie releases to an overarching plot with major effects on the fluff. Even all that is rather unnecessary when dealing with Mercenaries. Ord is already considered the Mercenary capital of the world, so amping up that aspect would be perfectly fine. Many of them will be working for Khador, Cygnar, the Resistance, and the Protectorate. However, I don't think that Ashlynn will, or even should, be taken in that direction. There is just too much antipathy with Khador to become a "fast" Macbain. Most of this talk about where to take Llael is because it is about Ashlynn, the key representative Warcaster of the Resistance since very early in the history of the game. The direction to take Llael naturally coincides with where to take Ashlynn.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 11, 2017 10:15:35 GMT
I do love how one silly comment from me caused this whole thread to de-rail and go sidewides.
But it does bring up an interesting point for me, are we nearing a point of warcaster oversaturation? How many more Warnoun3/4 can the game have before it becomes too unwieldy to operate?
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Dec 11, 2017 10:53:31 GMT
The game far is far past the stage of being unwieldy. All the huge changes to development and balance regarding CID are no doubt a symtom of that. Realistically, so long as they keep stuff like CID going, there shouldn't be any functional limit on the number of casters. What will likely change is the number of combos, and we already see this with the standardization of theme lists effectively breaking factions into sub-factions to limit what models can combo with each other without a significant cost associated with it.
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Post by april on Dec 11, 2017 11:06:03 GMT
I'm only saying this because LLael is a nation I really like and is just the whipping boy of everyone else... Cant we have something new is all I'm asking. Why would it? Narratively speaking, a whipping boy is fairly clearly and obviously it's intended purpose both from an authorial and fluff perspective. It mimics Belgium/Poland in real life terms, in the IK it's somewhat explicit as an artificial construction to take from the Khards, split the Umbreans (Though that may have been incidental) and be int eh way of Cygnar getting attacked. Frankly, I think Llael gets to much stuff. Ord should get more attention out of the buffer states. Though really, isn't what we all want just less Cygnar stuff? All my subjective view obviously. Poland had a period when it was a major European power and controlled a large Commonwealth which spanned into Russia and Germany; It did face a lot of problems later but it was highly influential. While it has had a lot of problems it is not the victim of Europe if anything Estonia deserves to be recognized for its hardships far more. It helped save Vienna and had possibly the finest constitution in Political history(Poland). I'm not trying to bash them, I love Poland, but Poland's achievements outway its bad history. Belgium also had an empire. The things they did in the Congo still effect that nation today. but I digress If we are going to compare I'd say more like the Balkans or east/west Germany yeah, I totally agree about Cygnar and Ord, but the Crucible should fix that ( for ord and possibly Llael?). I mean id like the Orgoth to return somehow, but that's probably not going to happen.
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