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Post by greenjello on Nov 28, 2017 1:19:07 GMT
So I remember how nice the gun was in mk II, though a ..... limited? Well now with all the restrictions lifted, and the ability to shoot three times without paying any fury, and it's OMG! So far a number of games with her have come down to some dittering back and forth, and then she shouts the opposing warnoun onto the ground with quake and puts 3 boosted POW14 shots into it. For a lot of warnouns that's enough. However, if it's not I've usually got a swamp troll along to pull in the helpless warnoun and have the rest of the army curb stomp the hapless sod.
Anybody have an idea why it's ROF3? Almost seems a bit too good, I'd expect it to be ROF 1, with Reload[2].
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Post by grabsnikk on Nov 28, 2017 1:25:14 GMT
Its probably ROF3 because her spell list and feat are rather weak.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 28, 2017 1:39:36 GMT
Oh trolls...the only sub forum where you would ask for a nerf to a tried and true caster who is not OP in any way. Yes she assassinates very very well. But a good opponent will be expecting that from Turn 2 onward and do everything they can to prevent it. Considering all she really does is give her army a slight speed buff, def buff, and shoot stuff herself good and proper. I think her gun is acceptable. Just tell your opponents to check her threat range from now on
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Post by robbleyourworld on Nov 28, 2017 1:57:50 GMT
Yeah her gun is great but her feat and spell list are pretty meh, not bad just meh. I nearly rolled a small tournament with her by winning every game with her on turn 2 because all the players either hadn't played against her or hadn't since Mk2. Since that happened those players always respect her personal assassination potential and thus the games are much more dragged out and while they still end in assassination most times we actually have a game.
Someone has to have the best gun in the game why not Trolls? especially since shes by no means OP.
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Post by greenjello on Nov 28, 2017 2:00:04 GMT
Oh trolls...the only sub forum where you would ask for a nerf to a tried and true caster who is not OP in any way. Bah! Just have PTSD from what PP did to the Pyre/Slag trolls at the beginning of mk II. I'm surprised we got something this nice.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Nov 28, 2017 2:18:13 GMT
Oh trolls...the only sub forum where you would ask for a nerf to a tried and true caster who is not OP in any way. Bah! Just have PTSD from what PP did to the Pyre/Slag trolls at the beginning of mk II. I'm surprised we got something this nice. this happened to me during the CID at some point I decided trolls deserved to have good things as well
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Post by greenjello on Nov 28, 2017 2:57:20 GMT
Bah! Just have PTSD from what PP did to the Pyre/Slag trolls at the beginning of mk II. I'm surprised we got something this nice. this happened to me during the CID at some point I decided trolls deserved to have good things as well LOL, honestly, I have no problem with some of the things that happened to trolls during the edition change. Janissa's wall was a bit too nice. I mention the Pyre/Slag trolls because their buffs are so restricted that it seems to seriously limit what can be put into a list. This is because most of our heavies are pillow fisted, and need a buff to get to that crucial POW18+. Right now if I want to do that I need to include either the Mauler for Rage, or Rok for Primal. And I don't understand why this was done, since I don't believe either the Pyre/Slag were broken. Never heard anybody complain, in the General forum, or any of my opponents. So I really got to wonder. And it has a knock on effect of making Horgle1 far less useful than he used to be. I'm also a bit salty about the Kriel Warriors losing their prayers, seems interesting this would happen after their plastic kit came out, dropping the price from $137 to ~$65 for everything but the piper/standard. Back on topic, I don't think even Caine's gun is quite as good as Grissel2, even he has to pay to reload in all his incarnations. (Which is not a call for a nerf, just an observation)
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 28, 2017 4:09:41 GMT
She gained tremendously from the change to the ROF rules. That made her gun one of the best in the game, which in turn mostly made up for her very weak feat and mediocre spell list. I have played her a lot and found that she is very strong until you get to high levels of play, where she can't quite hang with the S-Tier, especially Grymkin, Cygnar, and Cryx. (and COC... /edit)
Deflection looks great at first, but DEF 14 is not going to stop a FOCUS 7, 8, or 9 warcaster from hitting your models with spells. Any full gun line WILL either simply ignore Deflection with counters like Blessed or Spellpiercer, or simply overwhelm it with high RAT or debuffs. The Chronicler or snow drifts do not help this. No tournament gun line cares about concealment. Deflection in Trollbloods is really only useful against combined arms lists that would like to shoot for a turn before they close to melee.
Dash is often useful unless you're in POD, and if you're not then it's harder to run a Mountain King and you don't have Janissa. /Sigh.
Discord is great on the MK or a Bouncer IF you're up against melee infantry...
The theme here is that all of her spells are highly situational. Her ammo types are somewhat situational but less so.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 28, 2017 7:23:53 GMT
She gained tremendously from the change to the ROF rules. That made her gun one of the best in the game, which in turn mostly made up for her very weak feat and mediocre spell list. I have played her a lot and found that she is very strong until you get to high levels of play, where she can't quite hang with the S-Tier, especially Grymkin, Cygnar, and Cryx. Deflection looks great at first, but DEF 14 is not going to stop a FOCUS 7, 8, or 9 warcaster from hitting your models with spells. Any full gun line WILL either simply ignore Deflection with counters like Blessed or Spellpiercer, or simply overwhelm it with high RAT or debuffs. The Chronicler or snow drifts do not help this. No tournament gun line cares about concealment. Deflection in Trollbloods is really only useful against combined arms lists that would like to shoot for a turn before they close to melee. Dash is often useful unless you're in POD, and if you're not then it's harder to run a Mountain King and you don't have Janissa. /Sigh. Discord is great on the MK or a Bouncer IF you're up against melee infantry... The theme here is that all of her spells are highly situational. Her ammo types are somewhat situational but less so. I agree that Deflection is pretty weak, but saying that "no tournament gunline cares" is just not true. Caine 3 with feat up and a battle group full of chargers does not care. Sloan does not really care, but is that the only shooting you ever face? Normal Trenchers sure cares. Even RAT 9 long gunners will care if they only hit half their shots. The Rockets in Khador for example definitely DOES care. If you go to DEF 16 with concealment or elevation, they do WAY less than if you were standing around at DEF 12. Idrians with prey are RAT 7. Sure, they might have Eye of Menoth, or rerolls or wot not, but it is not like they always hit DEF 16. Same goes for Errants and all other shooting in Menoth really. Dead pirates with Ghost shot obviously ignores concealment, and with Denny feat and crippling grasp they can manage just fine. But on non-feat turns, the other 18 pirates can murder infantry with their pistols too, but if you are DEF 16 (going down to 14) they still need to roll 9s to hit. Even the Pistolwraith and Hellslinger can miss that level of DEF. In Ret All their shooty units care except strikeforce. The convergence infantry definitely cares, even the spray dudes, since their RAT is so low to begin with. Damianos dead eyed RAT 5 dudes still cares. Boosted 11s is by no means automatic. Our fellow troll shooters will care for sure. Get a heavy on a hill and it goes to DEF 16 against that Bomber. Boosted 11s again. You will likely only be hit once, and that is not even guaranteed. Circle has access to hunter and sprays and stuff, but DEF 14 is still at the point where you need to boost to hit, and could potentially miss. Legion famously ignores concealment, but their Deathstalkers do not. RAT 8 vs DEF 16 units means they will likely only kill one guy rather than 2. Ogrun (who will definitely make an appearance early next year) who assaults will also care. Skorne infantry care about concealment. Granted that if they do one huge combined attack from venators at RAT 17 or what ever, they will not care, but is that REALLY the only shooting you ever see from them? The turtles shoot a few guys per game, but deflection shuts that down pretty hard. Hollowmen who combine for RAT 7 only hit half the time against DEF 14. Croaks and Brigands will not like DEF 16 dudes. Add to this that battle group based shooting, can boost but RAT 5 still struggles with DEF 16 AND it requires you to always spend those extra fury/focus. Especially for warcasters, this is important since each focus allocated for boosting to hit is a focus that can not be spent elsewhere. Granted that Deflection in trolls will not just turn off the really hard gunlines, BUT it will reduce the efficacy of day-to-day-shooting. Most list have at least some guns and they do at least a bit of work. Deflection can drastically reduce THAT amount of work. Though Grissel is a good assassin, against a skilled opponent she will not get the chance to just drop them on turn 2. You will need to play a long game and get rid of models around the caster. During such a game, you would lose models to this "normal" shooting, and Deflection can tip that in your favor more and more. If it only saves 1 guys per turn, that is an extra 5 guys you have on turn 5. I for one would love to have 5 more dudes on turn 5. Sorry for the long rant, TLDR: Deflection will not shut down the dedicated gun lists, but it WILL add up against more reasonable level of shooting. After a long game, you could have a handful of extra models to use for contesting or for chipping in in the round 5 assassination. This is valuable, even if +2 ARM against shooting would have been much better against the dedicated gunlines.
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Post by gobber on Nov 28, 2017 8:23:51 GMT
...There are a lot of models to buy before I can test this myself, but I think she's going to like storm in the north running a lot of the new releases. The pyg lookouts' rat buff will be great for her assassinations. The northkin elder's speed bonus stacks with dash to really get her army upfield quickly. Deflection is much better on def13 Northkin Raiders/Fireeaters than other troll infantry.
If I could afford all the northkin raiders, they seem like they'd work really well with grissel. AD+pathfinder+Spd 8+reposition on feat turn is a lot of board pressure. Ps13 charges are pretty respectable for their price as well. Parry is far more useful on them than other troll units, as they have the option to fall back and make ranged attacks or slip behind the lines and wreak havoc with quick work. Hooch hauler dials all that up to 11; suddenly they're def15+steady on the approach and flinging boosted pow12 bombs. Fell callers can make them mat8 to reliably trigger quick work, and pyg lookouts can make those shots rat7... HHH can bring that up to mat9 rat 8.
I'd also like to try Rok+Bomber for a battlegroup, which brings an extra pow 14/16 shot, berserk, better mat, a mat buff, and a free wailing upkeep target over the mauler option without losing arm cracking capability. Access to all the northkin buffs gives Rok loads of options in this list. The ability to line up crit stationary sprays on your own cold immune infantry isn't a terrible back pocket option to have against knockdown-immune casters.
Grissel2 SOTN 75 -Rok -Bomber -Runebearer (free) Valka (free) Fell Caller (free) Raiders Raiders Hooch Hauler Minstone+NKE Min Lookouts
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 28, 2017 12:59:31 GMT
...There are a lot of models to buy before I can test this myself, but I think she's going to like storm in the north running a lot of the new releases. The pyg lookouts' rat buff will be great for her assassinations. The northkin elder's speed bonus stacks with dash to really get her army upfield quickly. Deflection is much better on def13 Northkin Raiders/Fireeaters than other troll infantry. If I could afford all the northkin raiders, they seem like they'd work really well with grissel. AD+pathfinder+Spd 8+reposition on feat turn is a lot of board pressure. Ps13 charges are pretty respectable for their price as well. Parry is far more useful on them than other troll units, as they have the option to fall back and make ranged attacks or slip behind the lines and wreak havoc with quick work. Hooch hauler dials all that up to 11; suddenly they're def15+steady on the approach and flinging boosted pow12 bombs. Fell callers can make them mat8 to reliably trigger quick work, and pyg lookouts can make those shots rat7... HHH can bring that up to mat9 rat 8. I'd also like to try Rok+Bomber for a battlegroup, which brings an extra pow 14/16 shot, berserk, better mat, a mat buff, and a free wailing upkeep target over the mauler option without losing arm cracking capability. Access to all the northkin buffs gives Rok loads of options in this list. The ability to line up crit stationary sprays on your own cold immune infantry isn't a terrible back pocket option to have against knockdown-immune casters. Grissel2 SOTN 75 -Rok -Bomber -Runebearer (free) Valka (free) Fell Caller (free) Raiders Raiders Hooch Hauler Minstone+NKE Min Lookouts You can run 2x Fire Eaters instead of the second Raider unit. That's more like $60 or less for those two units.
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Post by cayterpius on Nov 28, 2017 17:23:39 GMT
Has anyone tried her out with D&S? I'm liking the idea of her KD gun being RAT8.
War Room Army
Trollblood - Grissel Assassins II
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Grissel Bloodsong, Marshal of the Kriels - WB: +27 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 5 - Dozer & Smigg - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Dire Troll Blitzer - PC: 16 - Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15
Gremlin Swarm - PC: 3 Gremlin Swarm - PC: 3
Dhunian Knot - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6 Pyg Burrowers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 Trollkin Runeshapers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 9
It's not in theme (I'm still struggling to build in theme AND bring all the models I like. The free point aspect of themes has ruined the freedom of list building IMO but that's a whole other tangent...), but the point is to make her KD threat as reliable as possible (Lucky Shot + Puppet Master) and then pour in as high POW range as is available in Trolls (which is the reasoning behind the seldom seen Burrowers and Runeshapers).
Mauler with Rage gives her some melee potential against high ARM and the double Gremlin Swarm (my favourite) tries to make up for scenario presence when playing with a low model count.
The aim of the list is to severely damage or hopefully remove up to 2 heavies a turn, if not going for the assassination run itself.
Haven't played it yet but I like the thought.
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Post by grabsnikk on Nov 28, 2017 17:35:59 GMT
Has anyone tried her out with D&S? I have tried this before, its often not that great because while +2 RAT is good, the loss of +4 RNG from snipe often means you cannot shoot at what you really want to without moving Grissel up into a dangerous situation.
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Post by cayterpius on Nov 28, 2017 17:46:55 GMT
Has anyone tried her out with D&S? I have tried this before, its often not that great because while +2 RAT is good, the loss of +4 RNG from snipe often means you cannot shoot at what you really want to without moving Grissel up into a dangerous situation. Wow, where did my brain go? Completely blanked on the whole one animus at a time deal. Not to mention, thinking about it again now, the one FURY would probably be better spent boosting anyhow. So scrap D&S or still worth it for the one RNG14 POW14 shot he throws out?
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Nov 28, 2017 18:10:16 GMT
I think you want to go storm of the North, to be honest. With three shots and the ability to boost all of them, the knot doesn't matter much to her. A hooch hauler and raiders will give you a ton of boosted pow12 guns for your kd target and more other synergies than I care to list here. Look at the other Grissel2 in storm thread for list ideas.
I sympathize fully about the theme frustrations, but as a wise troll told me, let it go.
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