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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 27, 2017 23:21:20 GMT
So this is my problem. Now, I'm pretty good at coming up with lists. However my issue is that I struggle to create decent pairings and actually use the right pairing for the right match up. Depending on my flavour of the month (Between Strakhov2 LoS to B3 jackspam to Strakhov1 Jack Assassination to Karchev Spam) I find it hard to get a second list that covers the areas that my first list does not. For example, I'm quite late to the party but I'm rocking a Karchev list at the Moment. Karchev -Juggernaut x3 -Kodiak x 3 -Marauder -Grolar -Forge Seer -Forge Seer -Yuri the Axe -Widowmaker Marksman -Gobber Tinker I've only played it 4 times, 3 of them at a tournament on saturday, and I really enjoy it. I'm a very fast player and I can easily end my deployment and turn one and still have over 55 minutes on my clock (Having 14 models really helps.) And my standard method of playing is fast and forceful, I shove my meat in my opponent's face until they choke. But here is my problem, I don't actually know what lists can go along with this list to help me cover the holes. I did try a Sorscha1 list, but it did not do too well and I'm probably going to change my second list again. Seeing as it's nearing midnight in the UK, I'm sure I'll have lots of helpful answers in the morning! Anyone? Hello?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 28, 2017 2:50:32 GMT
Welshy, I’m going to watch your thread with interest! Karchev jack spam was my anchor tenant for the longest time. I’m tried Strakhov jack spam, B3 jack spam, and am currently dating Vlad 1 jackspam seasoned with a WGRCDS to remove the chaff and aftertaste.
My most reliable pairing throughout has been Butcher 3 in Winterguard, which got better after Mercs were allowed since it made that build so much better against Cryx and Grymkin.
Since I’m currently having a love affair with the Boss, I’m trying other stuff which can cover those matchups, as well as other lists which deliver a lot of heavy ARM hate. I don’t play enough to have a well informed opinion yet, but have been trying different flavors of the Wolves of Winter
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Post by Netherby on Nov 28, 2017 6:02:58 GMT
How did you actually go in the tournament with Karchev? I ask because I think you're too late to this party... In my opinion Karchev isn't a competitive choice any more and if you want to run that kind of list you can pretty much replace Karchev with any of a bunch of other choices and it be better.
As to a second list, if you're taking a Karchev style list (not run by Karchev mind) then you need something that can deal with weapon master spam and shenanigans. Butcher 3 in WGK is a strong option and reasonably easy to learn how to play while still having enough of depth of tricks to get out of many holes.
I think if I was in your position I would put OW2 in charge of your jack spam list and pair it with B3 WGK.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Nov 28, 2017 11:21:49 GMT
Given the choices I would pick: - find points for Orrin in Karchev and pair with Strakhov jacks. Strakhov fights melee battlegroup lists, Karchev fights gunlines and Cryx. Not recommended without practice with Stakhov jacks. - Karchev as is, B3 jacks (wgk with jacks is better as said above when you already have Karchev in pair). B3 fights Cryx, battlegroup melee lists and whatever matchups you need rfp in, Karchev against gunlines.
S2 LoS + Karchev will put you into list chicken every single time.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 28, 2017 12:14:37 GMT
Karchev fights gunlines and Cryx. [Emphasis mine.] Huh?
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 28, 2017 12:50:38 GMT
You know, you might have a future in an interesting niche of the film industry. It would involve you taking off your fighting trousers, though...
Sorscha1 does not really lend herself to a fast and forceful play style. (She may like it fast and forceful, but that is an entirely different subject, closer to that niche film industry I mentioned earlier.)
If your standard method of playing is fast and forceful you should find a caster that is a good match for that, then build an army around that caster that fills in the holes you are looking to fill.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Nov 28, 2017 22:10:50 GMT
Karchev fights gunlines and Cryx. [Emphasis mine.] Huh? Well he has he magic weapon thing which is a prerequisite for fighting Cryx on top of always playing theme with access to Orrin and Seers. Sure, Cryx likes cracking arm itself, but they are less favored against jack lists than against no magic lists.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 28, 2017 23:04:35 GMT
Wow, thanks for the replies. I see groveling still pays off! Let's do this the British Way! By invading each of your country's and killing off the native population! Armchair WarriorAwesome! Like I said I'm quite new to Karchev, but Strakhov2 and me go way back (he's the first model I ever Pre-ordered, and I practically only run him in Legion of Steel. I'm waiting for the new Man-o-War stuff to come out and maybe he'll be good in that theme too. Initial tests are promising, but the theme is still missing something. As for the Cryx, yeah Karchev is very good into them. I'll explain below. NetherbyI actually did really well with Karchev. I went 2-2 overall, losing with Sorscha against Cryx and losing with Karchev against Cryx. However I had solid victories over Kraye and over Legion. With some better positioning I would have been in a good position to win against Cryx, it was Coven in Dark Host on Spread the Net, but I was way up on Attrition and was in a position to take the scenario too. However Karchev got tagged with Curse of Shadows, and he suffered two turns of attacks that I wasn't able to effectively clear enough. And he died on the last available attack of that turn. On my counterfeat (and under Coven's feat.) I took out the Wraith Engine, pretty much a whole unit of Bane Warrriors and blocked the other one with clouds, a whole unit of Bane Riders and one of another unit. And this opponent only lost one game, against the Cryx player that won the tournament (who I also played and lost due to moving Sorscha when I should not have. And my opponent admitted that if it wasn't for that schoolboy error, I would have been in a good position to win that game. Again it was the bloody coven, but this time playing with a bunch of pirates.) Into Kraye, my opponent was unable to crack the armour enough and due to counter charge he was unable to effectively charge and reposition, he'd take a free strike and then a charge. He managed to take out 2 and a half jacks on his feat turn, on my counter feat I was able to destroy 6 of them I think. It was briliant. Secondly I played into Legion, my opponent was testing out the Primal Terror theme, which had a mass of Warmongers and Warspears. Kodiaks were gold here, and my opponent's dice really helped (he rolled a good 4 or 5 double ones on his main turn. Sucks to be him.) I decided that the Juggernuts were to be sacrificed to the Ogrun in order to allow the Kodiaks to vent steam. Again, I lost a jack and many others were damaged but on the counter feat I easily killed 20 Ogrun. Now, I thought a long time ago that Jackspam was pretty much dead. I was at the funeral, I played 'Flowers for Harkevitch' on the Ukulele. But then I noticed something, the whole meta (at least in my meta) was changing. As the new themes are being fleshed out and playable, the factions are starting to diversify. Trenchers and the new hotness of Kraye can't play into serious ARM skew as Kraye doesn't crack armour and the Trenchers also suffer. Legion just suffers in general, the Coven only have 1 way of reducing armour (Curse of Shadows) that only effects one model. Sure Banes have Dark Shroud, but they still need a good charge off to clear out jacks. I am probably getting Old Witch for Christmas, but I'm moving house soon so a gun carriage is off the books for now. Which I feel is a major core element in the B3 list. smoothcriminalI have a lot of practice with Strakhov1 Jaws. He's my favourite caster and its a list I can go back to anytime and really enjoy. I did write the whole 'Strakhov is the best caster in Khador thread.' and then he was the best caster at the WTC. Go me! Orin would have straight up helped me win that Cryx match up. I could have really done with Arcane Vortex. I would really love to run Karchev and Strakhov2 Legion of Steel, but like you said every list is a list chicken that I might lose. BlargalisciousReal Brits don't take off their trousers! But we do take our socks off! My Sorscha1 list was designed for Scenario play. Sorscha -Behemoth -Destroyer x 2 Forge Seer x 2 Yuri the Axe Kell Bailoch Widowmaker Marksman Widowmakers Kayazy Eliminators x 2 Nyss Lots of fast units and Solos. And I think it has potentially. Just maybe not against the Coven..... Anyone else? I think that's it guys. But do people generally think Karchev/Butcher3 WGK?
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Post by Netherby on Nov 29, 2017 4:37:58 GMT
My experience into Kraye with Karchev has been completely the opposite. They usually have two Centurions (or what ever the one with really high armour and cannot be charged is called) which completely shut down counter charging. Then they are able to reposition beyond reprisal range with very few viable targets for triggering Road to War. They are also able to heavily abuse terrain with pathfinder across the board, so that when they reposition their 6-7" away you don't actually have the distance to make the counter charge any way. Kodiak's even under feat can't deal with Arm 23/24 jacks and you have no way to get pathfinder on anything else. So then I'm looking at trying to kill Kraye, but he's steady so the spray k/d is useless
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Post by borderprince on Nov 29, 2017 12:38:01 GMT
My experience into Kraye with Karchev has been completely the opposite. They usually have two Centurions (or what ever the one with really high armour and cannot be charged is called) which completely shut down counter charging. Then they are able to reposition beyond reprisal range with very few viable targets for triggering Road to War. They are also able to heavily abuse terrain with pathfinder across the board, so that when they reposition their 6-7" away you don't actually have the distance to make the counter charge any way. Kodiak's even under feat can't deal with Arm 23/24 jacks and you have no way to get pathfinder on anything else. So then I'm looking at trying to kill Kraye, but he's steady so the spray k/d is useless Against Kraye with Centurions, two things that have worked for me: - Get them knocked down, or better yet, thrown. Yes, Kraye has Jump Start, but Kraye is really low on focus to get his jacks to do work. Anything that eats into his focus pool drops his list's damage output quite effectively. - Running to engage (won't work against a Centurion with Admonition on it, but a Centurion with Admonition is a Centurion without Arcane Shield). A Centurion needs full focus to have much chance of doing significant damage to a Khador jack, but using all its focus means no Polarity Field, and you can then charge in with a Juggernaut the next turn. Ideally wreck it (especially if under Karchev's feat) and then the original jack that ran in might still be able to do something that turn. Kodiaks and Juggernauts are cheap enough for this, especially if much of the Kraye list is made of light jacks. Also worth remembering Kraye can only get Arcane Shield on a single Centurion. The other is stuck at max ARM21 with the shield. At present Kraye lists seem to be quite varied. People seem to be trying him in Heavy Metal and Grave Diggers (I actually think he might work quite well in Sons of the Tempest too, but Grave Diggers is Cygnar flavour of the month). Outside Heavy Metal, his lists probably do include some squishy targets for Road to War.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 29, 2017 18:24:45 GMT
Maybe we should convince our Cygnar players to never meet up so I can keep winning.
But I was able to get around the Repo by leaving a Juggernaut a few inches behind the front Kodiak sacrifice. So any centurion has to pop polarity field before charging and if he doesn't get the free charge off, he's only getting there with one focus. And Kraye doesn't have enough focus to hand out full stacks to more than a Jack or two and to still put his spells out and his horsepower spell.
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Post by Arjac Ironside on Nov 29, 2017 19:28:59 GMT
I'm about to try Zerkova1 in wolves with all the doom reavers as a pair to Vlad1 Jaws (which could really just be a caster swap for your karchev list) it brings loads of magic weapons and pretty much the whole army is immune to spells so it hits cryx and grymkin where they live. And cloud walls are nice for delivering loads of weapon masters.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 30, 2017 0:10:18 GMT
Well I've made some Karchev changes. Find out how they went here
lormahordes.freeforums.net/post/69414/thread
Dropped the tinker and swapped the Grolar and Kodiak for a Devestator and a Destroyer. And then brought in Orin Midwinter.
In this case, my second list was a Strakhov1 JAws of the Wolf list with Behemoth, 2 juggernauts a Grolar and a Marauder.
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Post by Havock on Nov 30, 2017 3:31:13 GMT
S1 Shooty-ish comes to mind but it's not a list that clicks for everyone.
Mind, I am of the opinion that you just gotta accept that you can't fix every possible matchup: -Karchev has a shitload of armor and boxes, but maybe you could swap Grolar and the Marauder for Big B. Maybe battle mechs as well, dunno if the math comes out.
Why? Adds some ranged presence -enough to make your opponent worry about not clustering his troops together and screening and if you feat and send him up after something that something will almost always get rekt.
So here's a dumb idea: Z1 Legion of Steel. I was a skeptic, but I tried and it works, and it plays surprisingly well into Cryx.
Sure, you have two melee-centric lists -which is why you should probably put Big B. with the Chev and Conquest in LoS. Why? because you need some guns, Conquest has some and creeping barrage plays nicely with clouds.
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Post by auraco on Nov 30, 2017 13:24:01 GMT
I'm not sure legion of steel with a cloudwall is the best option at the moment, a lot of people tech against clouds because of gravediggers and this ends up hurting Zerkova1 because her gameplan is based on these clouds, so people bring anti cloudwall tech that just happens to give the a good match up against Zerkova.
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