jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Nov 27, 2017 8:01:38 GMT
How to use snowdrifts you get from SotN theme?
20" is so back that they can't be used to hinder enemy movement, but if enemy have ambush models would it be good idea to place them 3" from side edge to hinder movement from that side? Should I try to put them place where my stone wants to be so it can get concealment from it?
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tomw
Junior Strategist
Posts: 128
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Post by tomw on Nov 27, 2017 9:15:17 GMT
I’ve had the same problem. They’ve mostly been a hinderance, I keep blocking in my non-cold immune caster with the difficult terrain they provide. I feel there must be a use for them but I don’t know what it is.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Nov 27, 2017 9:44:39 GMT
Why not stick them in a place your caster and/or stone will sit. Just because they can be 20 inches up the board doesn't mean they need to be.
The other suggestion would be to place them so Fire Eaters can sit in them after a run on first turn. They would essentially act as a def buff. Many people seem to think Northkin theme is only really viable with Bearka which obviously means no one is inconvenienced by the snow drifts.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Nov 27, 2017 10:21:02 GMT
I think problem is that 20" is not far enough for fire-eaters. I want them to be as far as possible (but not at enemy threat range) so around mid-line if I start. If I go second snowdrifts are at better place, but using them only if go second seems not optimal.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Nov 27, 2017 10:56:16 GMT
I think problem is that 20" is not far enough for fire-eaters. I want them to be as far as possible (but not at enemy threat range) so around mid-line if I start. If I go second snowdrifts are at better place, but using them only if go second seems not optimal. I mean, if you want optimal you wouldn't be playing the Northkin theme at all ;-)
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Post by Trollock on Nov 27, 2017 12:12:50 GMT
I think problem is that 20" is not far enough for fire-eaters. I want them to be as far as possible (but not at enemy threat range) so around mid-line if I start. If I go second snowdrifts are at better place, but using them only if go second seems not optimal. I mean, if you want optimal you wouldn't be playing the Northkin theme at all ;-)
Really? You do not like the SotN theme? I totally agree that the snow drifts are mostly useless, but the theme feels very strong to me over all. How come you dislike it?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Nov 27, 2017 13:48:11 GMT
I mean, if you want optimal you wouldn't be playing the Northkin theme at all ;-)
Really? You do not like the SotN theme? I totally agree that the snow drifts are mostly useless, but the theme feels very strong to me over all. How come you dislike it? I think it's opportunity cost. You really want to run infantry with it and with the current meta I feel Band of Heroes does it much better. Take down is so good, as is +2 inches deployment.
Maybe I'm undervaluing Vet Leader from the Hooch Hauler, but otherwise I'm confused at what people see in it as a theme.
Edit: Wrote Tactician instead of vet leader.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Nov 27, 2017 14:16:38 GMT
The hauler gives veteran leader, not tactician. The two inch deployment is mostly cancelled out by the Northkin elder+1 speed for anything (Northkin) in the aura, and RFP is great but situational, but (mostly) free upkeeps are also great. Also, bears and lookouts. Those are the reasons beyond the new and shiny factor that I'm looking at the storm.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Nov 27, 2017 14:49:21 GMT
Really? You do not like the SotN theme? I totally agree that the snow drifts are mostly useless, but the theme feels very strong to me over all. How come you dislike it? I think it's opportunity cost. You really want to run infantry with it and with the current meta I feel Band of Heroes does it much better. Take down is so good, as is +2 inches deployment.
Maybe I'm undervaluing Tactician from the Hooch Hauler, but otherwise I'm confused at what people see in it as a them.
If you're only talking about Running champs and/or long riders I'd agree that the theme benefits in BoH are better than SotN but it seems like you want to be in SotN for access to options like Raiders, Bears, and FE's despite worse theme benefits unless you're after free upkeeps. Also the +2" on deployment seems countered by better application of +1 speed its really the "takedown" that I take BoH for.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Nov 27, 2017 15:24:22 GMT
I think it's opportunity cost. You really want to run infantry with it and with the current meta I feel Band of Heroes does it much better. Take down is so good, as is +2 inches deployment.
Maybe I'm undervaluing Tactician from the Hooch Hauler, but otherwise I'm confused at what people see in it as a them.
If you're only talking about Running champs and/or long riders I'd agree that the theme benefits in BoH are better than SotN but it seems like you want to be in SotN for access to options like Raiders, Bears, and FE's despite worse theme benefits unless you're after free upkeeps. Also the +2" on deployment seems countered by better application of +1 speed its really the "takedown" that I take BoH for. I think you're potentially right.
My issue is that I don't think Raiders or bears are... very good. I realise I'm about to get disowned by the troll community.
But Raiders are a lot like highwaymen. Short range and often ineffective. Medium based models with ranged 8 projectiles get in their own way. They clump and struggle to get shots off.
Bears on the other hand rely too much on the Bear Handler and good players can kill him, making the unit ineffectual. A good player can always scalpel out key pieces and once he's dead they're super mopey.
It's not really what people want to hear and they are super flavourful and seem to bring a lot of joy to people, but in a list designed to win, I just don't see it.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Nov 27, 2017 15:28:58 GMT
The hauler gives veteran leader, not tactician. The two inch deployment is mostly cancelled out by the Northkin elder+1 speed for anything (Northkin) in the aura, and RFP is great but situational, but (mostly) free upkeeps are also great. Also, bears and lookouts. Those are the reasons beyond the new and shiny factor that I'm looking at the storm. It does indeed give Veteran leader. I meant one thing and typed another. Thanks for the correction.
Free upkeeps on northkin models. Most casters aren't nothkin so any self upkeeps aren't free. Offensive upkeeps aren't free. It's just a bit meh.
The cold stone speed is at the cost of the normal stone. So you have to think carefully about your out for stealth and Incorporeal.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 27, 2017 15:33:19 GMT
Raiders are probably not a ranged unit. They are probably a SPD7 melee unit (11" threat) with pathfinder that happens to throw bombs if they kill something. I do not think they will be played like highwaymen who rely fully on CRA to do anything. These guys want to get in the thick of things and brawl i think, and if they kill something (with MAT 6+1+2 without caster support and POW 11 they are good at killing infantry) they toss a bomb to possibly get an extra guy. And how easy is it really to kill that handler? He can easily hide behind terrain (until the bears commit and kill something, but after that it is fine) or be stealthed, or if all else fails, he could be covered by 2 bears. I think he is hard enough to remove. I am very hopeful that SotN will be a commonly played tournament list. Not clear with what caster, but that just makes it better imo
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Post by robbleyourworld on Nov 27, 2017 15:40:11 GMT
If you're only talking about Running champs and/or long riders I'd agree that the theme benefits in BoH are better than SotN but it seems like you want to be in SotN for access to options like Raiders, Bears, and FE's despite worse theme benefits unless you're after free upkeeps. Also the +2" on deployment seems countered by better application of +1 speed its really the "takedown" that I take BoH for. I think you're potentially right.
My issue is that I don't think Raiders or bears are... very good. I realise I'm about to get disowned by the troll community.
But Raiders are a lot like highwaymen. Short range and often ineffective. Medium based models with ranged 8 projectiles get in their own way. They clump and struggle to get shots off.
Bears on the other hand rely too much on the Bear Handler and good players can kill him, making the unit ineffectual. A good player can always scalpel out key pieces and once he's dead they're super mopey.
It's not really what people want to hear and they are super flavourful and seem to bring a lot of joy to people, but in a list designed to win, I just don't see it.
Someone has to have the unpopular opinion I do agree a bit on the Raiders but it also depends on what you're looking for from them. I've seen them be a particularly annoying tarpit with Madrak1 at speed 7 def 15 no knockdown but I do agree that without a hit and damage buff their base output is a bit lacking (assuming you're looking for them to do work on things other than infantry) The bears though I'm disagree strongly. I've played some very good players and have yet to have the bear handler trivially scalpeled out. Players tend to respect the bears a lot and thus end up playing a lot around a 10 point package which often has good value in itself.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Nov 27, 2017 15:47:27 GMT
Raiders are probably not a ranged unit. They are probably a SPD7 melee unit (11" threat) with pathfinder that happens to throw bombs if they kill something. I do not think they will be played like highwaymen who rely fully on CRA to do anything. These guys want to get in the thick of things and brawl i think, and if they kill something (with MAT 6+1+2 without caster support and POW 11 they are good at killing infantry) they toss a bomb to possibly get an extra guy. And how easy is it really to kill that handler? He can easily hide behind terrain (until the bears commit and kill something, but after that it is fine) or be stealthed, or if all else fails, he could be covered by 2 bears. I think he is hard enough to remove. I am very hopeful that SotN will be a commonly played tournament list. Not clear with what caster, but that just makes it better imo You might be right. I obviously do want to stuff to be good, I gain nothing from our stuff sucking.
Maybe I should do some more testing
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 27, 2017 16:07:24 GMT
If you're only talking about Running champs and/or long riders I'd agree that the theme benefits in BoH are better than SotN but it seems like you want to be in SotN for access to options like Raiders, Bears, and FE's despite worse theme benefits unless you're after free upkeeps. Also the +2" on deployment seems countered by better application of +1 speed its really the "takedown" that I take BoH for.
My issue is that I don't think Raiders or bears are... very good. I realise I'm about to get disowned by the troll community.
But Raiders are a lot like highwaymen. Short range and often ineffective. Medium based models with ranged 8 projectiles get in their own way. They clump and struggle to get shots off.
Bears on the other hand rely too much on the Bear Handler and good players can kill him, making the unit ineffectual. A good player can always scalpel out key pieces and once he's dead they're super mopey. I think bears are good, but I agree about the handler, You have to be really careful with him or a good opponent will scalpel him. It was a consistent issue for me in CiD. But all those cryx and cygnar payers kept crying "BEARS OP O MUH GURSH" Considering you can force an opponent to stay 13" away from both table edges till you ambush the bears, all for 10 points, and they can murder heavies, I think they are OK> People don't appreciate the tactical advantage ambush gives you when you clump an opponent to the middle of the table. Raiders are another product of people complaining about drifting fire bombs and devs not having a creative fix. They really needed "fire on direct hit" Instead of crit fire. For thier cost I think the combo of quick work and pathfinder make them an excellent skirmish unit. I find them better than highwaymen Mostly because a mat 6(8 with fell caller) Pow 11(13 with stone) sword is way more reliable than...rat 5 pow 10's and gunfighter is actually a detriment in trolls IME. (however it does get around the new unyielding benefit! Whoop whoop?) They take buffs better and I think there is some Janky synergy somewhere in faction, just need to find it. Now as for BoH being flat better? I disagree. I think the themes have different intended prey. BoH likes murdering infantry and is really good at beating other melee oriented armies to a pulp. Storm of the north is more versatile. It can adapt turn by turn. You can increase threat range, or damage, turn by turn, every caster seems to have a place somewhere in it. IMO the main reason to take SotN is for the northkin elder I say this for what he does to the army: 1: Adaptability 2: Serious damage increase for Warrior models. 3: Some very interesting damage buff for our Ice themed models. (pow 16 snowballs on a horgle 2 feat turn? Pow 18 Ice darts? yes puhlease.) Put this into perspective: Madrack 2 in SotN can do the following: 1: Pow 16 Weapon master Longriders OR Pow 14 WM longriders that threat 13" --It will take an average of 3 Long riders to kill a khador heavy. with this set up. 2: Pow 12 Weapon master Kreil warriors --Something I find hilarious is cabers in this set up. They are Pow 15 Weapon masters that is 21-27 damage for 6 points of cabers talk about trading up.... With the speed buff from the Stone you are actually compensating for the +2 Deployment. Also your entire army (save for some beasts and the caster is cold immune which can be quite relevant in some match ups. Top it off with free upkeeps and you have casters that are way less fury taxed and a well supported efficient and adaptable army. With the advent of theme-aggedon and the most recent cryx CiD I think that lists that can adapt as well as SotN can and are not just (counter list A or B) are going to be incredibly useful in the meta. The snow drifts are almost always useless. I tried so hard to get that changed in CiD, not sure how in the world that was assumed to be an acceptable benefit. But the other benefits are so good its honestly not as a big a deal as I make it seem with my grumbling.
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