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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 27, 2017 12:57:38 GMT
How is this thread a good idea?
I'm not advocating that we should do Privateer Press' marketing for them (though they can sure use the help) nor should we push some "everything is happy and shiny" narrative, but we do need to act in our own self-interest. We, as players, need to try to grow the player base if possible and retain as many as we can if we want to continue to play this game and protect our investment in our miniatures. A stagnant or declining player base in our favorite game is a sure way to a more boring future.
Starting a thread like this, even if it is in good nature and for fun, certainly doesn't look good for new players happening by this website and gives ammunition to those who would like to tear Warmachine / Hordes down for whatever reason. Think about it: if you're new to Warmachine and happen by this site early in your interest, is reading a thread like this going to make you want to continue? The more experienced among us know that a lot of the responses are cherry picking the most expensive stuff and skewing the army lists from competitive towards expensive, but you take any of these army lists out of context and all of a sudden things aren't as fun.
Wargaming is a cooperative endeavor that gets better the more people who are involved. While I'm not worried about Matt Wilson and privateer Press' bank account, I am worried about the money I have sunk into my miniatures. Trading off miniatures for a dead game is "problematic" on Bartertown (Who remembers Epic? What about Babylon 5 Wars? Then there's Star Fleet Battles. Oh, and try selling Battletech miniatures if you have any.) and watching your hobby gather dust is worse.
Think about what you post on these forums.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Nov 27, 2017 13:40:10 GMT
How is this thread a good idea? I'm not advocating that we should do Privateer Press' marketing for them (though they can sure use the help) nor should we push some "everything is happy and shiny" narrative, but we do need to act in our own self-interest. We, as players, need to try to grow the player base if possible and retain as many as we can if we want to continue to play this game and protect our investment in our miniatures. A stagnant or declining player base in our favorite game is a sure way to a more boring future. Starting a thread like this, even if it is in good nature and for fun, certainly doesn't look good for new players happening by this website and gives ammunition to those who would like to tear Warmachine / Hordes down for whatever reason. Think about it: if you're new to Warmachine and happen by this site early in your interest, is reading a thread like this going to make you want to continue? The more experienced among us know that a lot of the responses are cherry picking the most expensive stuff and skewing the army lists from competitive towards expensive, but you take any of these army lists out of context and all of a sudden things aren't as fun. Wargaming is a cooperative endeavor that gets better the more people who are involved. While I'm not worried about Matt Wilson and privateer Press' bank account, I am worried about the money I have sunk into my miniatures. Trading off miniatures for a dead game is "problematic" on Bartertown (Who remembers Epic? What about Babylon 5 Wars? Then there's Star Fleet Battles. Oh, and try selling Battletech miniatures if you have any.) and watching your hobby gather dust is worse. Think about what you post on these forums. I don't think that it is problematic at all. I can't get the point on that. Every single miniature games are already costy games, compared by various other games(especially for well knowned board games with able to access for cheap package of board&pawns, such as chess). And, if someone likes to collect the miniature and like the game(as well as able to pay for it) then he will join the game. If he didn't satisfied for some points he will simply don't pick the game, and it is nothing wrong about that - they need to avoid it if they don't satisfied for some points and the positive points will not make the gap, because every single gamer needs to enjoy the game. Not only Warmachine&Hordes, but every single game you can see would. Even though there will be some people that want to avoid the game because it seems costy after see this post, it can't be helped; although it is the most expensive lists we can imagine, but you may expect the average costs required to play the game, and usually we need and have more models than the models required to make a tight standard point list. Few beginners in the miniature games are starting with a functional standard point list either, and they are encouraged to start with a starting box then expand their collection leisurely - because they need to know which one would meet their taste, and the models are expensive. In short, problem?
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Post by W0lfBane on Nov 27, 2017 14:06:42 GMT
What the heck blarg? What makes you think a new player seeing a thread clearly labeled "most expensive list" and see that the worst offenders are at worst 600$ is gonna turn them off.
600$ is relatively cheap considering this is the worst we could come up with.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 27, 2017 15:04:42 GMT
I can't get Trollbloods to $700, even with Raiders and Extreme Maulers. I must say, I'm a bit surprised. Go kriel company? 4 weaponteams 200 dollars for 5 points (3 freebees) 2 Raiders 240 for 30 Warwagon 120 for 16 2 fireeaters 85 for 14 Glacier king 180 for 35 Hunters grim 50 875 dollar (took the prices at element games in the uk, without their discounts)
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Nov 27, 2017 16:02:13 GMT
I don't see as much of a problem as Blarg does, but I agree that the other thread (the cheapest) is much more useful and productive. Beginners often do not realise in how many ways they can cut costs of a wargaming army and advice on how to do this with mindful shopping, simple conversions and alternative WYSIWYG models from other producers can be very useful, maybe even worth a sticky in the main forum.
Nothing wrong with this thread, though!
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 27, 2017 16:16:37 GMT
I also see nothing wrong with this thread.
Especially as I'm the guy that started it.
I just wanted to see what people came up with, and so far only one person has cracked a full grand. And that was not using the full amount of models per box in order to gain the necessary leader models.
That's why I said legal, you can totally play this game with cardboard cut out to size and with names written on it, I sure as hell did when I was broke.
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Post by darkshroud on Nov 27, 2017 17:20:08 GMT
what?
so people know the most expensive list that people can come up with. thats *the* most youll spend on this game if you want a list to play.
how is that counter productive for PP. isnt that a selling point?
like stated above. cut out a bunch of 30/40/50mm paper bases and write the name of the unit/solo/caster/jack on them if you cant afford that *one* list someone said was *the* most expensive.
if youre playing this game or any mini game you know that its a hobby, its a luxury item and therefor going to be expensive in some way shape or form. so you cant use that argument that it turns people off.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 27, 2017 19:30:03 GMT
I like the pairing of these two threads. It's good for new players to know if the things they are attracted to are on the expensive side or not, how cheap or expensive this can actually become without having to build lists themselves yet. It saves them a bit of effort while researching the game and that's a good thing.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 27, 2017 19:53:09 GMT
(I complain that this thread may not be a good idea.) [SNIP] Even though there will be some people that want to avoid the game because it seems costy after see this post, it can't be helped; although it is the most expensive lists we can imagine, but you may expect the average costs required to play the game, and usually we need and have more models than the models required to make a tight standard point list. Few beginners in the miniature games are starting with a functional standard point list either, and they are encouraged to start with a starting box then expand their collection leisurely - because they need to know which one would meet their taste, and the models are expensive. In short, problem? Complete newbies may take a look at the potential of a $600+ army after doing some initial online research and walk away without having bought a boxed set. The great thing about the Mk3 battle boxes is that the buyer, presumably a newby, gets a pretty good look at the fun of wargaming (or Warmachine if they already play miniature wargames) with a relatively low entry cost. Those battle boxes are a great value, and I think PP did a pretty good job of coming up with those Mk3 battleboxes. But the perception of a great value disappears if the newby finds out that they might be dropping a lot more money to field a full army than they expected. Look, we all kvetch about PP's business practices in one way or another. Or we might have have heated arguments about unit point costs and the rules. This is all stuff that a newby will probably ignore due to lack of understanding. All of the yelling, screaming, finger-pointing, wild accusations, straw man arguments, grand declarations, multi-chapter explanations, and other idiocy that constitutes normal discussion on this we website we can put in the "No Big Deal" category. But, when we start to highlight one of the biggest barriers to getting into a new hobby, cost, you have gotten into an area that ~anybody~ will understand. That info, regardless of any other conditions, counter-arguments, or logic that goes with it, can drive away new players.Look, we all know that miniature wargaming is not a cheap hobby. We all know that there are ways to put together a new army for less money. We all know that GW makes you buy bigger, more expensive armies to play "games of the right size." We get it. But just because we get it doesn't mean it is a good idea to flaunt these truths. None of what we take for granted matters to a complete newby (or their parents) that sees big $$$ and says "I can't afford that."
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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 27, 2017 20:01:49 GMT
The potential scale for this hobby, like any other hobby is so large that any responsible buyer would probably understand the difference between a price floor and ceiling.
Take fishing for example. You can spend $5 on a cheapo rod or $5000 on an expensive one.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 27, 2017 20:03:27 GMT
We are also not an official forum so we are totally allowed to remain here and talk bad about PP.
Anyway, we are near the end of the second page and we've only had one list on this page!
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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 27, 2017 20:12:41 GMT
We are also not an official forum so we are totally allowed to remain here and talk bad about PP. Anyway, we are near the end of the second page and we've only had one list on this page! Unless we start going through faction by faction or theme by theme, I think we already hit the ceiling with the Cryx Thrall shenanigans.
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Post by darkshroud on Nov 27, 2017 20:25:15 GMT
going to discount games inc. then to the tourny page and clicking on top players and adding that list to the my cart.
they all seem to hover around 250. at least the couple that i tried.
so, i think that should say something. when the people here are looking at 500+ for a list. thats definitely not usual.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 27, 2017 20:34:27 GMT
We are also not an official forum so we are totally allowed to remain here and talk bad about PP. Anyway, we are near the end of the second page and we've only had one list on this page! Unless we start going through faction by faction or theme by theme, I think we already hit the ceiling with the Cryx Thrall shenanigans. Ill be damned if Cryx are the op faction in terms of sheer cost too.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Nov 27, 2017 20:37:20 GMT
I’m pretty sure all the whining on the internet about models — X is op, Y is unplayable trash, PP should change this, that needs CID, what are those clowns at PP thinking with that, PP is turning into big bad GW, etc., — does more to discourage new players than a thread showing that if you really really try, you can spend several hundred dollars on this hobby (which is actually not that big of a hobby expenditure, all things considered).
It’s probably part of why they nuked the forums — there is only so much negativity towards their own products that a company will pay to host on their own website before they realize that perhaps paying to host content that discourages sales is not the best business idea.
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