marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187 
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Post by marke on Dec 7, 2017 17:45:55 GMT
They still suck balls  I mean.. we've concluded Brutes are alright. Instead of stupid birds you can have 6 thralls and two Brutes. Toss in a (free) SCommander and they end up further turn 1 than birds, and are actually probably a bit harder to remove. They might do some damage as well in an alternate universe. |
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Post by darkshroud on Dec 7, 2017 19:07:25 GMT
They still suck balls I mean.. we've concluded Brutes are alright. Instead of stupid birds you can have 6 thralls and two Brutes. Toss in a (free) SCommander and they end up further turn 1 than birds, and are actually probably a bit harder to remove. They might do some damage as well in an alternate universe. eh, birds have higher def and cma. so they have a better chance at actually hitting and doing damage. just make sure to have a leviathan to put damage on the things first. |
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Post by tarviche on Dec 7, 2017 21:06:05 GMT
Carrions are decent at jamming but they are still extremely easy to kill. Where they've actually been decent is in doing damage to heavies, of all things--finisher and CMA means they can do genuine damage, though they'll usually still want a debuff.
In general though, yes, the thralls (and as I said, cheap infantry in general) don't seem very good. You can probably overwhelm people with 60+ thralls as a skew, but you might just clock yourself out.
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Post by darkshroud on Dec 7, 2017 22:27:32 GMT
Carrions are decent at jamming but they are still extremely easy to kill. Where they've actually been decent is in doing damage to heavies, of all things--finisher and CMA means they can do genuine damage, though they'll usually still want a debuff. In general though, yes, the thralls (and as I said, cheap infantry in general) don't seem very good. You can probably overwhelm people with 60+ thralls as a skew, but you might just clock yourself out. The purpose is to just get there, you dont need to be the one making attacks. if you opponent wants to waste time, let him go crazy. this lets you get stalkers in position and feat with skarre to get 2 stalkers on the opponents caster. but i guess thats kinda the only thing you can do. you dont need to attack with all the dudes. just keep them coming. but i guess ghost fleet still does recursion better. so...i dont know |
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Post by Cryptix on Dec 7, 2017 22:59:25 GMT
Carrions are decent at jamming but they are still extremely easy to kill. Where they've actually been decent is in doing damage to heavies, of all things--finisher and CMA means they can do genuine damage, though they'll usually still want a debuff. In general though, yes, the thralls (and as I said, cheap infantry in general) don't seem very good. You can probably overwhelm people with 60+ thralls as a skew, but you might just clock yourself out. The purpose is to just get there, you dont need to be the one making attacks. if you opponent wants to waste time, let him go crazy. this lets you get stalkers in position and feat with skarre to get 2 stalkers on the opponents caster. but i guess thats kinda the only thing you can do. you dont need to attack with all the dudes. just keep them coming. but i guess ghost fleet still does recursion better. so...i dont know As bad as it sounds, once the CID nerfs go through for Revenants Mcthralls will be our only recursive infantry with two attacks, which is kinda important considering our debuffs. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 8, 2017 8:13:06 GMT
The purpose is to just get there, you dont need to be the one making attacks. if you opponent wants to waste time, let him go crazy. this lets you get stalkers in position and feat with skarre to get 2 stalkers on the opponents caster. but i guess thats kinda the only thing you can do. you dont need to attack with all the dudes. just keep them coming. but i guess ghost fleet still does recursion better. so...i dont know As bad as it sounds, once the CID nerfs go through for Revenants Mcthralls will be our only recursive infantry with two attacks, which is kinda important considering our debuffs. Tell that to Skarre 3  |
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Post by gedditoffme on Dec 8, 2017 9:55:58 GMT
I had some success with a surprisingly elite pDenny list to tackle infantry skews in the pair with scaverous dark host. (Pre Denny nerfs when ghost fleet not an option for me) To me the big benefit is free pistol wraiths and ambushing brutes. Aiakos and stalkers also appear to threaten assassination or cripple key pieces.
Vile thralls are also easy to underestimate. They’re not what they used to be, but still do their job of clearing infantry jammers. And a depleted unit makes for a scoring option in the late game.
Theme: Infernal Machines
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Warwitch Deneghra - WJ: +28
- Skarlock Thrall - PC: 4
- Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
- Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
- Nightmare - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16)
Aiakos, Scourge of the Meredius - PC: 4
- Stalker - PC: 8
- Stalker - PC: 8
Pistol Wraith - PC: 0
Pistol Wraith - PC: 0
Hellslinger Phantom - PC: 7
Machine Wraith - PC: 2
Soul Trapper - PC: 1
Mechanithralls - Leader & 9 Grunts: 9
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls - Necrosurgeon & 3 Grunts: 4
Mechanithralls - Leader & 9 Grunts: 9
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
Bile Thralls - Leader & 5 Grunts PC:9
Having said all this: it is a good general theme force, with the widest variety of options in faction, but it doesn’t have the raw power of any other cryx theme.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Dec 8, 2017 17:03:26 GMT
Do you know why these units are so terrible? Even if people seem to think they're fine, because you can have many and blahty blah. It's because they do nothing. 1 thrall does nothing, 20 thralls do nothing x 20. If an element in your army can be almost ignored, I don't think it is justified being there in the current meta. Brutes are nice, but they are not exactly hard to remove. I'm exaggerating of course Less than a 1 point model hitting p+s 13 on a charge is alright, as long as it can hit. I also do like Tiberius' positive thinking IM is a flexible theme and can be built many ways. It is certainly true, but maybe the defensive tech of the list isn't quite there yet? I can't pinpoint the problems much further than thralls being bad and dying too easily. Really would like this list to work better, and perhaps I just gotta keep playing and toying with different tools available. It is not an easy list to play for sure. I think you hit the nail on the head. Mechanithralls are numerous, but that's it. They really need some tech to help them hit, which will most likely be your caster, or you need to use easy to kill Bile Thralls against infantry. Then the only anti-shooting tech you have are Brute Thralls with shield guard, cute, but they're still 12/14, the Wraith Engine, but you have low ARM across the board, or engage with fast, but expensive, Soul Hunters. Meanwhile, all the other themes are decked out with tech and actually do something, so why would you really play Infernal Machines except when you really want jack support and for some reason don't want to play Black Industries? I find the secret is to play a sepulcher with a caster who can has a jack based armor buff. Agathia works surprisingly well here. Biles are much more survivable when they can hide behind a colossal. |
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Dec 8, 2017 17:31:05 GMT
They still suck balls I mean.. we've concluded Brutes are alright. Instead of stupid birds you can have 6 thralls and two Brutes. Toss in a (free) SCommander and they end up further turn 1 than birds, and are actually probably a bit harder to remove. They might do some damage as well in an alternate universe. Why not both? Thrall potpourri is surprisingly successful, with or without ghost walk. |
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Post by tarviche on Dec 8, 2017 22:06:59 GMT
After the Revenant nerfs, I wonder if IM will be better at infantry spam. Their recursion is far worse in every way, but there are way more of them to begin with.
The weight of ghost shot rifles, supremely good recursion, excellent free solos, and solid low-POW ranged options in general makes even a nerfed Ghost Fleet pretty tempting in comparison, though.
Deneghra 1 and Coven can run IM and cheap thralls pretty well, but they can run anything well.
If we ever get some kind of caster-independent MAT fixing in that theme (like Darragh 2 or some new UAs or something), it would suddenly be quite appealing with, say, Gaspy 1 or 2? I think you still want ghost walk really badly though.
I've always wanted to see a necrochemist officer for thralls. And a wider variety of skarlocks, I love those guys.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Dec 8, 2017 22:34:06 GMT
After the Revenant nerfs, I wonder if IM will be better at infantry spam. Their recursion is far worse in every way, but there are way more of them to begin with. The weight of ghost shot rifles, supremely good recursion, excellent free solos, and solid low-POW ranged options in general makes even a nerfed Ghost Fleet pretty tempting in comparison, though. Deneghra 1 and Coven can run IM and cheap thralls pretty well, but they can run anything well. If we ever get some kind of caster-independent MAT fixing in that theme (like Darragh 2 or some new UAs or something), it would suddenly be quite appealing with, say, Gaspy 1 or 2? I think you still want ghost walk really badly though. I've always wanted to see a necrochemist officer for thralls. And a wider variety of skarlocks, I love those guys. Agathia is a surprising MAT fixer for thralls. Flooding the field with thralls means that you're walking into back strikes quite often with ghostly. |
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Post by Cryptix on Dec 8, 2017 23:02:50 GMT
I like Agathia or Aiakos. That Carnage is pretty damn sweet, and I can pair it pretty easily with my Goreshade2 SFR.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 9, 2017 0:39:39 GMT
After the Revenant nerfs, I wonder if IM will be better at infantry spam. Their recursion is far worse in every way, but there are way more of them to begin with. The weight of ghost shot rifles, supremely good recursion, excellent free solos, and solid low-POW ranged options in general makes even a nerfed Ghost Fleet pretty tempting in comparison, though. Deneghra 1 and Coven can run IM and cheap thralls pretty well, but they can run anything well. If we ever get some kind of caster-independent MAT fixing in that theme (like Darragh 2 or some new UAs or something), it would suddenly be quite appealing with, say, Gaspy 1 or 2? I think you still want ghost walk really badly though. I've always wanted to see a necrochemist officer for thralls. And a wider variety of skarlocks, I love those guys. Personally I don’t think so. I think post CID changes the hierarchy of Cryx themes probably looks like: 1) Dark Host - The strongest theme we have both before and after the CID changes. There’s multiple ways to build within Dark Host, and multiple casters who can run the theme at the highest levels of competition, making this theme very difficult to actually prepare for. 2) Scourge of the Broken Coast - Satyxis Raiders are the strongest unit in a faction all about pushing its infantry up to 11. Before Theme Forces the majority of Cryx lists consisted of Satyxis, Arc Nodes, & Stalkers, and this theme allows all of that. This theme is just all around fantastic, and once the new CID models release, if they’re as good as their final CID versions, I would be very shocked if Scourge didn’t immediately start rivaling Dark Host for the #1 Spot. The only big criticism I can make of Scourge is that there aren’t many different ways to build the list. It does one thing extremely well, but it still only does the one thing. 3) Slaughter Fleet Raiders - This is one of the most open themes available to Cryx. While Slaughter Fleet lacks the raw power of Scourge & Dark Host, it more than makes up for it with sheer versatility. There are so many different types of units available to the theme, including a lot of different support options. While no one Slaughter Fleet list can play into everything, this is a theme force than can be built to answer anything. Any problem matchup you have with your primary list can likely be beaten by a Slaughter Fleet list tailored to fight it. 4) Black Industries - Cryx’s jack theme, while being amazing, suffers from the fact that it pairs poorly with Dark Host since they have a lot of overlapping good/bad matchups. Industries really wants to be paired with an infantry horde that suffers into the problem gunlines that ignore our defensive buffs, but don’t ignore carapace. 5) Ghost Fleet - The Revenant nerfs really bring this theme down. They still have the best caster independent recursion in the faction, but I’m not sure that’s enough to keep them relevant. More and more people are bringing recursion answers to deal with not just Ghost Fleet, but also things like Clockwork Legions & Testament. As Ghost Fleet’s counters become increasingly popular, and the Cryx player’s infantry list is required to deal with the matchup, such as playing into the mirror when the opponent has Scourge, Ghost Fleet becomes a worse & worse option to bring, since without their recursion, nerfed Revenant Crew leave a lot to be desired. 6) Infernal Machines - Where to start. Simply put, there’s nothing this Theme force does, that you can’t achieve better results doing in one of the other themes. Ghost Fleet has better recursion, Slaughter Fleet has better versatility, every theme, bar Black Industries, has better infantry, and Slaughter Fleet & Black Industries do more for Warjacks. The only thing Infernal Machines can do that you can’t just do in a different theme is flood the board with 80+ dudes, but I honestly don’t think that’s even worth it. Sure they have two attacks, but so do most of the units in Slaughter Fleet & Scourge. Sure you can add recursion to the list, but with that many models your corpse collocaters won’t be in range to collect quite a bit, and your opponent can easily end up sniping out all the models that aren’t in collection range first. |
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Dec 19, 2017 6:08:54 GMT
I was just in a tournament and went with a single list. Denny1 IM. I was the only one with a single list there, so opponents had minor advantage to boot.
Faced Grymkin King, Lylyth2 and Madrak1 BoH.
Denny1
-Nightwretch
-Nightwretch
-Leviathan
-Leviathan
2x Pistol Pete
Hellslinger
Bloat Mcbloatyface
Moebius
Machine Wraith
Siren
2x Necrotech
Min macs 3x Brutes
Max Soulhunters
Went 1-2, had game all day. Losses were my own, not the list's as Denny1 is kinda strong. Mcthralls did nothing as expected. They really suck, but the potential is there so I guess they ok. Soulhunters.. I love soulhunters! They go so far and are decent with debuffs. Bloat boat kinda sucks too. Unboostable POW 14 guns aren't that hot.. corrosion is very helpful, but I think next time Biles are a better investment. Maybe.
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