marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Nov 23, 2017 10:39:30 GMT
We at Cryx are spoiled with powerful themes, but IMO Infernal Machines is not one of them. Low accuracy, trivially removable and pillow fisted troops who resurrect slower than their pirate cousins. I don't feel like sepulcher is worth it to justify the list, but it is not a bad colossal. The problem is, in my mind Kraken does more work even with IM and Kraken casters feel better with other themes. That said, potential p+s 22 is just great and something the pillow theme could use. IM is my most played theme in mk3 (tbh haven't played much else) and while alright for casual play I guess, I'm struggling to see a competitive aspect. Carrion Thralls, for example, don't do much at all. As jammers they're terrible because MAT 5 P+S 7 free strikes won't scare anyone, and def 13 arm 11 isn't exactly hard to remove these days. Ashen Veil could make them acceptable, but other than that, being fast isn't much of an advantage if there's nothing else. Soul Hunters seem decent, but 14/14 is again a bit low for such an expensive unit. Bane Riders are so much better with mere 2 points. I have to test these. Mcthralls.. if they only were MAT 6. Surprise surprise, the theme has worked the best with our turd polisher Denny1, but that isn't saying much, other than highlighting the problem. The theme seems to have many good niche elements, but lack a real workforce. Anyway, I'm not stating these as facts or anything like that. Just some random thoughts, and I'm completely open to changing my opinion if good arguments are presented Sample list, trying to fix some of the problems with mass debuff, while giving an assassination vector or two. Jacks are chosen to survive shooting. War Room Army Cryx - D3nny Theme: Infernal Machines 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Deneghra, the Soul Weaver - WJ: +27 - Inflictor - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Nightmare - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Nightwretch - PC: 7 Hellslinger Phantom - PC: 7 Machine Wraith - PC: 2 Necrotech - PC: 2 Pistol Wraith - PC: 0 Pistol Wraith - PC: 0 Soul Trapper - PC: 1 Soul Trapper - PC: 1 Warwitch Siren - PC: 4 Carrion Thralls - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10 Mechanithralls - Leader & 9 Grunts: 9 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls - Necrosurgeon & 3 Grunts: 4 Soulhunters - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 THEME: Infernal Machines --- GENERATED : 11/23/2017 12:11:37 BUILD ID : 2054.17-11-04
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Post by far2casual on Nov 23, 2017 10:50:37 GMT
I'm fairly sure this build is entirely viable. Probably not an uber top list, but certainly viable. conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0wgz1wkw1f1h0t2B2Bi11KdQ1F26Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Aiakos 2) Captain Aiakos [+29] - Deathjack [23] - Kharybdis [17] - Nightwretch [7] - Stalker [8] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Warwitch Siren [0(4)] Warwitch Siren [0(4)] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Brute Thrall (3) [6] - Skarlock Commander [3] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [4] Soulhunters (max) [18]
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Post by tarviche on Nov 23, 2017 18:56:08 GMT
I think the problem with Infernal Machines is the same problem that other factions are having--40 or 60 points of cheap infantry aren't as good as 40 or 60 points of elite infantry. They won't do as much work, they're harder to maneuver en masse, and you can only get so many models into combat with enemy models. All the counters to infantry work especially well against cheap, low-DEF/ARM infantry. Skewing really hard to mass infantry with cheap, easily killed models will make you very vulnerable to hard counters like Caine 1's feat or tons of sprays.
Counters to cheap infantry are incidental, too--they end up in lists without even focusing on it. Counters for elite infantry like DEF 16 Satyxis or ARM 20 Banes or high-recursion Revenants require specific, intentional list choices.
It seems like this is a broader design issue for the game. The cheap baseline infantry for almost every faction seem to be seeing less play.
That said, Soulhunters are still very good, though expensive, so a list that has double Soulhunters, a Wraith Engine or two, and maybe ambushing min Mcthralls with Brutes is probably quite strong. And 60+ cheap thralls with Deneghra 1 or Goreshade 3 or Coven will still be overwhelming against an opponent who doesn't have strong anti-infantry built into the list.
So like
Coven -Skarlock (free) -Deathripper x2 -Stalker x2
Wraith Engine Wraith Engine
Max Soulhunters Min Soulhunters 6 Mechanithralls + 3 Brutes
Machine Wraith Machine Wraith Warwitch Siren (free)
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 23, 2017 19:20:42 GMT
I have 2 IM lists that I really like: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0wf_1919f92A2n1Vg7g7i01Ki11F1FCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines (Agathia 1) Bane Witch Agathia [+29] (Also plays well with Morty2) - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] - Sepulcher [36] - Skarlock Thrall [0(4)] Necrotech [2] Bile Thralls (min) [9] Carrion Thralls (max) [10] Carrion Thralls (max) [10] Mechanithralls (min) [6] - Brute Thrall (3) [6] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [4] and during the last CID cycle I tried: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0w0B1w19191x2A2E4if02626Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines (Deneghra 2) Wraith Witch Deneghra [+28] - Deathjack [23] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] - Nightmare [18] - Skarlock Thrall [0(4)] Darragh Wrathe [9] Saxon Orrik [4] Soul Trapper [1] Soulhunters (max) [18] Soulhunters (max) [18] There's a Tom Guan list with the Coven, Soul Hunters and an ILO Seether combo that looks like it works well too.
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Post by darrwood on Nov 26, 2017 6:02:49 GMT
There's a Tom Guan list with the Coven, Soul Hunters and an ILO Seether combo that looks like it works well too. As a note; that was from before theme-ocalypse. At the time the only Cryx themes were Ghost Fleet and Infernal Machines. What the coven do with Infernal Machines, they generally do better with Dark Host.
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Post by jodash on Nov 26, 2017 14:42:51 GMT
I have been tuning a Shade 3 list recently and I think this is something that I like: Theme: Infernal Machines 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Goreshade, Lord of Ruin - WJ: +27 - Harrower - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Slayer - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
Pistol Wraith - PC: 0 Pistol Wraith - PC: 0 Bloat Thrall - PC: 0 Bloat Thrall Overseer Mobius - PC: 6 Scrap Thrall - 3 Scrap Thrall: 2 Machine Wraith - PC: 2 Machine Wraith - PC: 2 Saxon Orrik - PC: 4 Hellslinger Phantom - PC: 7
Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Soulhunters - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 Carrion Thralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
Also I think the new CID Denny 2 LOVES IM and it loves her back. Access to deathjack/nightmare, spammable Breath Stealer to help your mech thralls. Curse of Shadows for Soul hunters, Venom to deal with high arm single wound and Hellmouth to deal with high defense models. Can't wait until her rules are fully out to play it
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Nov 26, 2017 23:54:51 GMT
Pehaps strangely, I thought Skarre2 might be good in it (I've never been convinced she's a horrible pile of cr@p).
Future Sight doesn't specify you have to spend Focus to boost. 4" melee is great for Black Spot attacks, so is a high rate of fire. McThralls like a DEF debuff, and her feat is very nice on Pistol Wraiths (they might even survive after attacking!).
No native damage buff hurts. I don't really know where to go from there, but I think Cryx players more clever than I might find a way to make it work.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 27, 2017 0:07:42 GMT
Pehaps strangely, I thought Skarre2 might be good in it (I've never been convinced she's a horrible pile of cr@p). Future Sight doesn't specify you have to spend Focus to boost. 4" melee is great for Black Spot attacks, so is a high rate of fire. McThralls like a DEF debuff, and her feat is very nice on Pistol Wraiths (they might even survive after attacking!). No native damage buff hurts. I don't really know where to go from there, but I think Cryx players more clever than I might find a way to make it work. Skarre2 is awesome in Slaughter Fleet. With Ragman, Gang Fighter and a Kraken she can really do wonders with black spot and future sight.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Nov 27, 2017 0:12:16 GMT
Pehaps strangely, I thought Skarre2 might be good in it (I've never been convinced she's a horrible pile of cr@p). Future Sight doesn't specify you have to spend Focus to boost. 4" melee is great for Black Spot attacks, so is a high rate of fire. McThralls like a DEF debuff, and her feat is very nice on Pistol Wraiths (they might even survive after attacking!). No native damage buff hurts. I don't really know where to go from there, but I think Cryx players more clever than I might find a way to make it work. Skarre2 is awesome in Slaughter Fleet. With Ragman, Gang Fighter and a Kraken she can really do wonders with black spot and future sight. No doubt, but I was musing on IM. I think she gets the most out of Sepulchre, and McThralls really need the heavy lift assist and recursion help. Shooting is particularly good with her, and since Pistol Wraiths aren't allowed everywhere (but free in theme), she can get a lot out of them too.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 27, 2017 0:19:12 GMT
Skarre2 is awesome in Slaughter Fleet. With Ragman, Gang Fighter and a Kraken she can really do wonders with black spot and future sight. No doubt, but I was musing on IM. I think she gets the most out of Sepulchre, and McThralls really need the heavy lift assist and recursion help. Shooting is particularly good with her, and since Pistol Wraiths aren't allowed everywhere (but free in theme), she can get a lot out of them too. The main problem I run into with Skarre2 in IM is that she can't protect the thralls and can't buff the ones that protect themselves (i.e. Carrions). She also doesn't have ghostwalk, which is almost a requirement for IM. Denny1 sitting behind a sepulcher can be insanely evil though.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Nov 27, 2017 9:07:36 GMT
Heh, Skarre2.. I really want to like her, and IMO protecting thralls is not the problem.
For me, the problem is pillowfistedness. A caster without a damage buff in one of the lowest damage themes doesn't tempt me too much. Bloats with Black Spot sounds cool, but maybe not enough
Yesterday in a local tournament here one of the top players of the country was coincidently playing a similar Denny3 list I posted, just without Carrions, no recursion and more Mcthralls. He also had a DJ, which seemed real useful. He was playing in the finals with the list vs Denny1 GF, but lost.
Watching those games, I'm more convinced D3 IM can be viable, but I still don't fully buy this theme can handle armor too well.
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 27, 2017 14:52:22 GMT
conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0wf_19c33hd-1Wi11Ki11K1F1FCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines (Agathia 1) Bane Witch Agathia [+29] - Deathripper [6] - Kraken [36] Iron Lich Overseer [0(5)] - Inflictor [13] Bile Thralls (max) [15] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Brute Thrall (3) [6] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Brute Thrall (3) [6] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [4] I also want to try this theme out with Aiakos or Asphyxious, but its hard not having access to Stealth. This list also has the same -5 armor swing as Gaspy1 but tied to the ILO and Seether.
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Post by tiberius on Nov 27, 2017 16:07:33 GMT
I personally feel that Infernal Machines is our most versatile theme. I mean depending on the caster and what you want the function of the list to do, you can literally build it to do anything you want. Do you need to deal with high DEF? You have bloats and biles and soul hunters. Do you need to deal with armor? You can take a colossal, ILO and seether, a merc like rag man, a debuff caster, etc. The brutes hit very hard and you can even build a recursion theme that can just recycle mechanithralls and brutes all day. Do you want to do scenario and jamming? You have the carrion thralls, recurring mechanithralls and access to incorporeal solos. You need spell casting support and focus efficiency? The withershadow combine, Aiakos, ILO and Deathjack are available. The hardest part of this theme is deciding how you want to build because it literally can do anything you want it to.
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Dec 2, 2017 19:05:34 GMT
The casters I’ve played most in this theme are Deneghra3 and Aiakos2. I’ve enjoyed playing this list:
War Room Army
Cryx - Soul Harvesters
Theme: Infernal Machines 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Deneghra, the Soul Weaver - WJ: +27 - The Withershadow Combine - Maelovus, Admonia & Tremulus: 9 - Malice - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
Wraith Engine - PC: 15
Hellslinger Phantom - PC: 7 Pistol Wraith - PC: 0 Pistol Wraith - PC: 0 Soul Trapper - PC: 1 Soul Trapper - PC: 1
Soulhunters - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls - Necrosurgeon & 3 Grunts: 4
THEME: Infernal Machines ---
GENERATED : 12/02/2017 10:59:30 BUILD ID : 2055.17-11-21
It may have too many soul gatherers in some cases, but usually I can get enough souls on a model for Denny to grab 3-4 souls per turn (taking souls off one model and/or being given some by a Soul Trapper). And, anyone who gets to keep the souls they gather (like Malice and Soul Hunters and Hellseeker Phantom) can make good use of them too. Denny can do a lot of heavy lifting herself, killing stuff and repositioning out of the way. Indeed, with this list she has to do lots of heavy lifting.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 5, 2017 3:33:15 GMT
I’m fairly certain Goreshade2 Infernal Machines is one of the best lists nobody is ever going to play simply due to how expensive it is.
Theme: Infernal Machines 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Goreshade the Cursed - WJ: +28 - Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Stalker - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Stalker - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Skarlock Commander - PC: 0 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Skarlock Commander - PC: 0 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Skarlock Commander - PC: 0 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Skarlock Commander - PC: 3 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2
Feating Back Brute Thralls at full health seems real good
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