danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120 
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Post by danx on Nov 23, 2017 9:45:32 GMT
I've played the Terpah a few times (10 in recent past - with K2 and Bethayne and Ly2), and crit poision on his tale has never been useful. he does often boost to hit (because Mat5) and so it might synergise there, but most infantry die to power 12, and against Jacks its no use. So much poison in faction.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Nov 23, 2017 10:40:45 GMT
20 pts seems like a universal heavy Cav cost. They feel very similar to Uhlans to me. Also I think the melee will be PS15. It’s the same weapon as warmonger and there is no way they come in at the same strength. I like to compare then to Uhlans and Troll Longriders. Uhlans vs Chosen: - SPD8 vs SPD7 - ARM17 5boxes +2ARM-B2B vs ARM17 8boxes +2ARM-melee snacking tough - POW16 Reach2 only on charge (then POW9 Reach0.5) vs POW14+ Reach2 always. - POW14 mounts both - relentless charge vs at least relentless charge but maybe pathfinder ? Both factions have similar spells to buff damage and armor (Legion even got Khador's spell on two last warlocks), Uhlans get more support from their (free) solos than chosen AFAIK, but we get the (not-free) BB for an extra +2STR/ARM meaning we hit harder and get higher armor. Uhlans feel more alpha-striky in isolation, and Chosen more tanky - but with the BB buffs they're just above in every aspect aside from SPD. Longriders vs Chosen: - SPD7 both - ARM18 8boxes tough +2ARM from stone vs ARM17 8boxes +2ARM-melee +2ARM-BB snacking tough - POW14 Reach2 on charge (then POW12) vs POW14+ Reach2 always - POW14 mounts both - need fenncall for pathfinder vs at least relentless ? Feel pretty similar on paper but longriders need to stay in range of stone to benefit from +2ARM/+1STR which is a shorter leash than BB's aura... Stone is cheaper and auto-include. Ogruns should hit harder defensively and stay on board a bit longer with unyielding and snacking. Longriders have access to slams which is a very nice tactical option. Not depending on support for pathfinder would be big for the 'gruns obviously. Longriders' support is cheaper but I feel more constraining on board, ogruns should be able to hit a lot harder in most situations, while the longriders are more tactical pieces. IMHO in both cases the Chosen feel superior enough on paper, that paying only 20pts for them would feel like we finally got a nice tank/attrition piece for once (well, for twice after the throne CID). I would not mind at all to be honest. As usual, I take all such comparison with a grain of salt, since in-faction supports/utility vary. But Legion HAS quite a lot of support (even if expensive) to offer chosens, and currently miss hard-hitting, hard-to-break attrition options - more than trolls and khador. |
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Nov 23, 2017 10:52:37 GMT
I've played the Terpah a few times (10 in recent past - with K2 and Bethayne and Ly2), and crit poision on his tale has never been useful. he does often boost to hit (because Mat5) and so it might synergise there, but most infantry die to power 12, and against Jacks its no use. So much poison in faction. Pretty much my point, being both situational and random is just too much for crit poison. If you bring poison on say raptors, it means they will eb good agaisnt some targets, mediocre against others. But that is a conscient choice. Either play them only against infantry lists or hordes, or be prepared to select your targets well. If it was crit brutal, you gamble a bit hoping for "spikes" on hit and dmg to do just a bit more. Nothing to really base a plan on, but you are just happy when it procs. With crit poison, you very rarely even try to go for it. You just sometimes roll crits, maybe even remember you have the crit effect, and then notice it does not apply now (or the infantry model is auto-dead anyway). I think I had more situations where I got a crit and was a bit sad that it did nothing, than situations where I was happy to get the crit. I feel crit poison provides no tactical options, as you can never plan for it. But it also provides as many disappointments as it does happy moments, so it is not even really fun. I would suggest to change the effect to either a crit that always helps (crit brutal / crit armor pierce, because the stinger found a weak spot) or just constant poison that you can plan for. Alternatively, we could also make it dish out continuous corrosion (surely Everblight can tinker some acid glands or something for them). Corrosion is probably useless on the BB tail, but might work for the other crit poison tails we have. |
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Post by Korianneder on Nov 23, 2017 14:20:08 GMT
20 pts seems like a universal heavy Cav cost. They feel very similar to Uhlans to me. Also I think the melee will be PS15. It’s the same weapon as warmonger and there is no way they come in at the same strength. I like to compare then to Uhlans and Troll Longriders. Uhlans vs Chosen: - SPD8 vs SPD7 - ARM17 5boxes +2ARM-B2B vs ARM17 8boxes +2ARM-melee snacking tough - POW16 Reach2 only on charge (then POW9 Reach0.5) vs POW14+ Reach2 always. - POW14 mounts both - relentless charge vs at least relentless charge but maybe pathfinder ? Both factions have similar spells to buff damage and armor (Legion even got Khador's spell on two last warlocks), Uhlans get more support from their (free) solos than chosen AFAIK, but we get the (not-free) BB for an extra +2STR/ARM meaning we hit harder and get higher armor. Uhlans feel more alpha-striky in isolation, and Chosen more tanky - but with the BB buffs they're just above in every aspect aside from SPD. Longriders vs Chosen: - SPD7 both - ARM18 8boxes tough +2ARM from stone vs ARM17 8boxes +2ARM-melee +2ARM-BB snacking tough - POW14 Reach2 on charge (then POW12) vs POW14+ Reach2 always - POW14 mounts both - need fenncall for pathfinder vs at least relentless ? Feel pretty similar on paper but longriders need to stay in range of stone to benefit from +2ARM/+1STR which is a shorter leash than BB's aura... Stone is cheaper and auto-include. Ogruns should hit harder defensively and stay on board a bit longer with unyielding and snacking. Longriders have access to slams which is a very nice tactical option. Not depending on support for pathfinder would be big for the 'gruns obviously. Longriders' support is cheaper but I feel more constraining on board, ogruns should be able to hit a lot harder in most situations, while the longriders are more tactical pieces. IMHO in both cases the Chosen feel superior enough on paper, that paying only 20pts for them would feel like we finally got a nice tank/attrition piece for once (well, for twice after the throne CID). I would not mind at all to be honest. As usual, I take all such comparison with a grain of salt, since in-faction supports/utility vary. But Legion HAS quite a lot of support (even if expensive) to offer chosens, and currently miss hard-hitting, hard-to-break attrition options - more than trolls and khador. You forgot Uhlans also have steady and crit knockdown on both their lance and mounts. You also left out the biggest benefit of Long Riders which is their Bull Rush order letting them make slams and two attacks in one action. Also have their been spoilers that ogrun cav would have relentless charge? I haven't seen that anywhere. Also if they're only good after adding 38 points of support from a blight bringer that has no chance of keeping up with them, so you only get the benefit in a single 5 inch aoe that has to be targeted and not placed, then they're not going to be used very often. |
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Nov 23, 2017 18:11:11 GMT
You forgot Uhlans also have steady and crit knockdown on both their lance and mounts. I totally forgot about steady indeed  I did remember critical Kd (long riders have it on mount too), but I kinda remembered from somewhere that Chosen had it too ? maybe I'm wrong (should be in the list anyway). Kallus2 does have critical KD on his mount so Chosen could have the same. (I wonder if all heavy cavs has the rule on mount in mk3 ?) It's only one attack after the slam, and it's a POW12 one (not a charge) AFAIK ? Which is cool yes. Still for me the "biggest benefit" of bull rush is that you have 5 sources of slam for 20pts, with fair speed, and it gives you a big potential to displace ennemy models by d6", which in a game like warmachine I find invaluable personnally - but that's me  Still hard to think this would make up for the other difference, but it's getting closer. So maybe only 20pts in the end, and it wouldn't make me unhappy to be wrong in this case No, it's just me wishlisting it, since Kallus2 has innate pathfinder I'm seriously hoping we get at least relentless charge on Chosen... Especially since we have no source of pathfinder for units in faction, it would make them kinda horrible not to have any access to pathfinder ? Not sure it'll be that hard for them to use the BB's aura ? Longriders usually benefits from the stone just fine until they charge in my experience. Shouldn't be a lot harder. After the charge it should be easier than for the stone, and I usually drop the AoE pretty easily for my monger/spears, so I'm not so worried. Also given their profile, if they cost 20pts like other cavs, they would almost be on par with our 19pts heavies attrition-wise, before the BB's buff. And just monstruous with it ? (and anyway you have to spend those BG points on something). Just like the spears were in mk2. Plus now we have a few nice warrior-only buffs to put on them... |
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Post by josephkerr on Nov 23, 2017 21:46:35 GMT
Id like a UA for the Warmongers with Iron Zeal and Tactics: Grievous Wounds. I dont hate our Ogrun. Warspears still hit like trucks and Warmongers are still medium bases with RNG 2 and POW 14. They often have to be dealt with or force free strikes ur opponent doesnt wanna take. Also, Id argue that Warmongers, in particular, are more survivable and better able to do their job with Tough than 3 boxes.
Mk. II Alert: I used to play Rhyas1 Rearguard into Cryx. At the Intermountain Cup, I had a 12/16 Warmonger dance and duck 2 Bane (Warriours) Thralls, Mr. Two Axes (CA), and a fully loaded Vociferon, and he killed all of them in return without support. Warmongers have the potential to kill all the infantry in their melee range and they can dent heavies on the charge. Theyre hard to balance units when theyre melee potential is so high with hot dice.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 24, 2017 5:27:56 GMT
I've played the Terpah a few times (10 in recent past - with K2 and Bethayne and Ly2), and crit poision on his tale has never been useful. he does often boost to hit (because Mat5) and so it might synergise there, but most infantry die to power 12, and against Jacks its no use. So much poison in faction. Pretty much my point, being both situational and random is just too much for crit poison. If you bring poison on say raptors, it means they will eb good agaisnt some targets, mediocre against others. But that is a conscient choice. Either play them only against infantry lists or hordes, or be prepared to select your targets well. If it was crit brutal, you gamble a bit hoping for "spikes" on hit and dmg to do just a bit more. Nothing to really base a plan on, but you are just happy when it procs. With crit poison, you very rarely even try to go for it. You just sometimes roll crits, maybe even remember you have the crit effect, and then notice it does not apply now (or the infantry model is auto-dead anyway). I think I had more situations where I got a crit and was a bit sad that it did nothing, than situations where I was happy to get the crit. I feel crit poison provides no tactical options, as you can never plan for it. But it also provides as many disappointments as it does happy moments, so it is not even really fun. I would suggest to change the effect to either a crit that always helps (crit brutal / crit armor pierce, because the stinger found a weak spot) or just constant poison that you can plan for. Alternatively, we could also make it dish out continuous corrosion (surely Everblight can tinker some acid glands or something for them). Corrosion is probably useless on the BB tail, but might work for the other crit poison tails we have. I wouldn't mind it if the Teraph picked up crit armor pierce. |
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 24, 2017 5:32:18 GMT
Id like a UA for the Warmongers with Iron Zeal and Tactics: Grievous Wounds. I dont hate our Ogrun. Warspears still hit like trucks and Warmongers are still medium bases with RNG 2 and POW 14. They often have to be dealt with or force free strikes ur opponent doesnt wanna take. Also, Id argue that Warmongers, in particular, are more survivable and better able to do their job with Tough than 3 boxes. Mk. II Alert: I used to play Rhyas1 Rearguard into Cryx. At the Intermountain Cup, I had a 12/16 Warmonger dance and duck 2 Bane (Warriours) Thralls, Mr. Two Axes (CA), and a fully loaded Vociferon, and he killed all of them in return without support. Warmongers have the potential to kill all the infantry in their melee range and they can dent heavies on the charge. Theyre hard to balance units when theyre melee potential is so high with hot dice. Since Anamag's feat comes with Grievous Wounds and Dark Shroud I have a feeling the Tactics thing won't happen. Iron Zeal is already on the Legionnaires, so that feels doubtful as well. |
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Nov 24, 2017 5:39:23 GMT
Id like a UA for the Warmongers with Iron Zeal and Tactics: Grievous Wounds. I dont hate our Ogrun. Warspears still hit like trucks and Warmongers are still medium bases with RNG 2 and POW 14. They often have to be dealt with or force free strikes ur opponent doesnt wanna take. Also, Id argue that Warmongers, in particular, are more survivable and better able to do their job with Tough than 3 boxes. Mk. II Alert: I used to play Rhyas1 Rearguard into Cryx. At the Intermountain Cup, I had a 12/16 Warmonger dance and duck 2 Bane (Warriours) Thralls, Mr. Two Axes (CA), and a fully loaded Vociferon, and he killed all of them in return without support. Warmongers have the potential to kill all the infantry in their melee range and they can dent heavies on the charge. Theyre hard to balance units when theyre melee potential is so high with hot dice. Since Anamag's feat comes with Grievous Wounds and Dark Shroud I have a feeling the Tactics thing won't happen. Iron Zeal is already on the Legionnaires, so that feels doubtful as well. Yeah but that is part of the beauty of this new Theme world.. no reason to not have multiple units with Iron Zeal as they really have no relation to eachother at this point, CotD vs PT. |
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Post by newsun on Nov 24, 2017 7:55:02 GMT
I would like to have both cavalry units in a theme together. Reindeer and ogrtaurs galloping in stride.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 24, 2017 9:34:40 GMT
In another thread, I suggested the swapping of Incite on Vayl1 with Manifest Destiny on Thagrosh2. This would keep Thaggy up front and center and allow him to support both infantry and beasts equally. It would also contrast him nicely with earlier version as the more aggressive, smashy version. But most importantly, it would give him a place in this theme, which he really should have.
Many infantry themes still give benefits for their warnouns, despite being clearly infantry based themes because of the free points for units. If this trend is continued, I would like to see our infantry gaining Sacrificial Pawn: Warbeast. It would give them an important role but still largely for supporting our infantry. We could limit it to certain types (heavy beasts only, or non-flying, etc), but I think leaving it untyped already highlights different strengths nicely:
Landsharks would have the armor and boxes to take more hits, and their speeds best match our Ogrun. This would give them an important role, which they could use considering they otherwise see no use at all.
Wasps suddenly become a cheap shield guard option.
Lessers would as well, but for their points, they would take a nice number of hits.
Our heavy flyers would seem poorly suited for such a role, but their extra speed would help them keep up with our new Cavalry.
It does seem like an over-strong benefit but balancing factors would be the high costs and relative fragility of our beasts. Also this wouldn't be unprecedented: the Blackclads theme gets it for cheap minion infantry, and CoC gets it on their no-cost-at-all-free-replacements-every-turn drones, so...
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 24, 2017 9:37:09 GMT
Also, putting Manifest Destiny on Vayl would help her survivability now they they gimped her feat so severely. Thematically she clearly should be leading from the back as well.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 24, 2017 23:22:59 GMT
Also, putting Manifest Destiny on Vayl would help her survivability now they they gimped her feat so severely. Thematically she clearly should be leading from the back as well. As much as I agree, I'll miss manifest destiny on my pow 18 warlock... Though, Incite does couple nicely with Dragon's Blood, which feels more at home on a unit than a Warbeast. |
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Post by snotling on Nov 25, 2017 8:00:30 GMT
From the facebook group:
I think her Feat should change based on whether she's merged with Belphagore or not. If she's outside, gives warriors Flank [FF Warbeast], if they're merged, it gives warbeasts Flank [FF Warrior]
I want that:
That sounds so fun!
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Post by cainuslupus on Nov 25, 2017 19:00:04 GMT
I'm not going to run wild with my imagination. What I would like to see:
- Carnivean chassis: +1 Def, point reduction, make Carni Rat 5 and Ravagore Rat 6.
- Protector: 8 points cost. If possible make his BIG ASS HALBERD Pow 14, because it's silly with less Pow than Ironfang Pikemens FFS.
- Terraph - point reduction.
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