Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Sept 18, 2017 8:58:11 GMT
Post by Arcaux on Sept 18, 2017 8:58:11 GMT
Can we please change the subfaction forum name of "Menoth" to the proper faction name "Protectorate" ? Or, even, if you prefer, "Protectorate of Menoth" ? I guess the similarly unfortunate "Everblight" could use the same kind of help. Especially when Convergence, Retribution or Circle didn't receive this kind of treatment. I'm intrigued by why this is such a big issue for one or two Menoth players?
The community uses the short name Menoth for two reasons: 1) It is shorter that Protectorate 2) It's a habit by now
You need to question why you want a huge community to change the word it uses for a faction. Is it reducing understanding. When someone says they play Menoth do you have a confused picture in your head of them controlling the God rather than the faction? I think not. I would suggest that this is pendency for pendency's sake.
We also refer to the game as Warmachine, even though technically it's Warmachine and Hordes. I don't feel this is also hurting understanding. If someone says they play Warmachine I wouldn't feel misled if they later told me they only play Legion.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Sept 19, 2017 10:52:43 GMT
Post by Cyel on Sept 19, 2017 10:52:43 GMT
The fact that you got used to it doesn't make it any less wrong. It just sounds silly to me. Like with really bad grammar/spelling I find it hard to treat a post that contains it seriously. Teachings of Jesus aren't abbreviated to "Jesus", Allah's domain isn't shortened to "Allah" and the Promised Land of Yahweh isn't even closely just "Yahweh". Using "Menoth" when someone means "Protectorate" just makes exactly as much sense in my eyes. Edit: Also, judging by the likes of this post: lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/2225/weakest-faction-game?page=3&scrollTo=46603 I am not the only one who thinks it's ridiculous.
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Sept 19, 2017 13:00:03 GMT
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Post by elladan52 on Sept 19, 2017 13:00:03 GMT
Sounds like it's time for a poll!
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Ideas
Sept 19, 2017 13:15:52 GMT
Post by Cyel on Sept 19, 2017 13:15:52 GMT
Good idea! Vox populi, vox Dei.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Ideas
Sept 19, 2017 14:43:34 GMT
Post by Arcaux on Sept 19, 2017 14:43:34 GMT
The fact that you got used to it doesn't make it any less wrong. It just sounds silly to me. Like with really bad grammar/spelling I find it hard to treat a post that contains it seriously. Teachings of Jesus aren't abbreviated to "Jesus", Allah's domain isn't shortened to "Allah" and the Promised Land of Yahweh isn't even closely just "Yahweh". Using "Menoth" when someone means "Protectorate" just makes exactly as much sense in my eyes. Edit: Also, judging by the likes of this post: lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/2225/weakest-faction-game?page=3&scrollTo=46603 I am not the only one who thinks it's ridiculous. 1) The fact that it gets used DOES make it right. Language is a means of conveying meaning. It changes and adapts overtime. If people use something enough then it becomes right.
2) Your issue here comes from treating it as a relgion instead of a country. When we shorten countries we reduce them and the country is called the Protectorate of Menoth. - We use the name Macedonia instead of calling in the "Former Yugoslavian Republic". - We call the country China and not the "People's republic" - We call the country Micronesia and not "The Federated States"
The list goes on and the reason we do this is obvious. There might be lots of Protectorates in the world, so we distinguish with the bit that is different.
The Protectorate of Menoth is not all Menites. It does not represent all followers of Menoth who are spread around the Iron kingdoms. It represents the people of a certain country and thus we shorten it like we would any other country, because the faction Menoth is the national army of the Protectorate of Menoth.
3) even if it wasn't logical (Which I just showed it is), it's what people say and so complaining about it makes you the same as people who correct Who/Whom or point out incorrect uses of Less/fewer. It's a form of intellectual snobbery that serves no purpose outside of self gratification. The man who made GIF's wanted them to be pronounced JIFs. If you tried correcting someone you'd look like an idiot.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Ideas
Sept 20, 2017 18:23:04 GMT
Post by Cyel on Sept 20, 2017 18:23:04 GMT
Just no. It simply doesn't make sense. Just like the fact that dozens of people on the net are happy to write "there calvary" instead of "their cavalry" doesn't make "there calvary" correct or not sound as if written by a 6y old.
But yeah, by your logic the Butcher of Khardov can be simplified to "Khardov" or Paladins of the Order of The Wall to just "the Wall" perhaps ? Khardov killed two of my Walls ? Sounds exactly as well as "I collect Menoth" and makes exactly as much sense for me.
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Sept 20, 2017 18:40:45 GMT
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Post by elladan52 on Sept 20, 2017 18:40:45 GMT
Just no. It simply doesn't make sense. Just like the fact that dozens of people on the net are happy to write "there calvary" instead of "their cavalry" doesn't make "there calvary" correct or not sound as if written by a 6y old. But yeah, by your logic the Butcher of Khardov can be simplified to "Khardov" or Paladins of the Order of The Wall to just "the Wall" perhaps ? Khardov killed two of my Walls ? Sounds exactly as well as "I collect Menoth" and makes exactly as much sense for me. You should make a poll.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Ideas
Sept 21, 2017 12:56:14 GMT
Post by Arcaux on Sept 21, 2017 12:56:14 GMT
Just no. It simply doesn't make sense. Just like the fact that dozens of people on the net are happy to write "there calvary" instead of "their cavalry" doesn't make "there calvary" correct or not sound as if written by a 6y old. But yeah, by your logic the Butcher of Khardov can be simplified to "Khardov" or Paladins of the Order of The Wall to just "the Wall" perhaps ? Khardov killed two of my Walls ? Sounds exactly as well as "I collect Menoth" and makes exactly as much sense for me. Both of your examples are people not countries. Your previous examples where religious organizations not countries.
If you wanted an example that supported your argument but was a country I can suggest - United States of America being shortened to United States - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island being shortened to United Kingdom.
Otherwise it's usually the way I stated and we refer to the country by the Pro Noun.
You're obviously welcome to disagree or even use my much better example, but your point about it being technically incorrect is ridiculous. Please don't pretend that referring to the Protectorate of Menoth as Menoth is somehow breaking rules of the English Language when we do that everyday with countries like Macedonia and it's absolutely correct.
It's a style choice rather than a rule and that means there is no right or wrong.
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Sept 21, 2017 16:00:49 GMT
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Post by tesoe on Sept 21, 2017 16:00:49 GMT
But yeah, by your logic the Butcher of Khardov can be simplified to "Khardov" or Paladins of the Order of The Wall to just "the Wall" perhaps ? Khardov killed two of my Walls ? Sounds exactly as well as "I collect Menoth" and makes exactly as much sense for me. You just did what you are complaining about. Orsus Zoktavir is the character's name. He has three models. Only two of them have the word "butcher" in the name. Yet People still refer to them as Butcher1, Butcher2, and Butcher3. Every is fine with that because we all know that if you say Butcher2 you mean the model named Kommander Orsus Zoktavir. Most of the community calls The Protectorate of Menoth just Menoth. It's short, easy to say, and everyone knows what you mean. It's not any more wrong than when most of the Cryx community called Aphyxious "Gaspy." As long as everyone knows what you mean you are using language right.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Ideas
Sept 22, 2017 7:18:51 GMT
Post by Cyel on Sept 22, 2017 7:18:51 GMT
Maybe that's because I'm not a native user of English. I learned it at school, not at home, so if something is not (not necessarily 100% of course!) correct it doesn't convey meaning easily to me.
For example when I read things like the aforementioned "there calvary" or "should of" or "could care less" for the first time, they probably just get skipped over unnoticed. When I see them for the tenth or twentieth time, though, I go "Wait...what !?" which is followed by some thinking, occasionally research. Only eventually comes the revelation that it's not clever wordplay or reference I don't know the background of or a regionalism but just a (too) common mistake.
Wait, you meant me? Shouldn't the mods do it? They are looking for ideas here, not solutions. There's even no subforum here where such a poll wouldn't be off-topic (the PoM subforum perhaps, but the same thing applies to Legion, possibly Convergence - maybe they would like to be called "Cyriss" which is shorter - Retribution, Circle ...).
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Ideas
Sept 22, 2017 8:01:43 GMT
Post by Arcaux on Sept 22, 2017 8:01:43 GMT
Maybe that's because I'm not a native user of English. I learned it at school, not at home, so if something is not (not necessarily 100% of course!) correct it doesn't convey meaning easily to me. For example when I read things like the aforementioned "there calvary" or "should of" or "could care less" for the first time, they probably just get skipped over unnoticed. When I see them for the tenth or twentieth time, though, I go "Wait...what !?" which is followed by some thinking, occasionally research. Only eventually comes the revelation that it's not clever wordplay or reference I don't know the background of or a regionalism but just a (too) common mistake. Just to clarify. Out of your examples: - There Calvary is straight up incorrect. - Should Of is again incorrect and I agree should be avoided. - Could Care Less isn't an error. While to my English ears it's jarring and sound awful. The correct phrase is "Could Care Less" in the US and thus it can't be grouped with the other two here which are clearly straight up wrong.
Interestingly calling Menoth, Menoth is exactly the same. It isn't wrong, it doesn't break any rules and in fact as it's a country it feels way more right to a native English speaker than calling them The Protectorate. I don't think it's fair of you to use grammatical errors to justify a stylistic choice, which, as I keep saying, Menoth is. We aren't breaking any rules. If it sounds weird to you, well that's just the way English is.
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Sept 22, 2017 16:59:05 GMT
Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 16:59:05 GMT
At least in my country, we use United States or America pretty much equally, as much as we say United Kingdom or Great Britain pretty much with the same frequency.
So, for me at least, saying "Protectorate" or "Menoth" don't sound bad in either case. It's just an abbreviation.
Also, I have heard players referring to Legions as "Everblight" or Retribution as "Scyrah" or Convergence as "Cyriss" and it never bothered me at all.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Ideas
Sept 22, 2017 17:47:14 GMT
Post by Cyel on Sept 22, 2017 17:47:14 GMT
At least in my country, we use United States or America pretty much equally, as much as we say United Kingdom or Great Britain pretty much with the same frequency. Well, America isn't a person, though. If the country was called "the United States of Abraham Lincoln" would you have people refer to this country as "Abraham Lincoln" ?
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Sept 22, 2017 17:56:19 GMT
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Post by elladan52 on Sept 22, 2017 17:56:19 GMT
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Ideas
Sept 22, 2017 23:02:08 GMT
Post by Arcaux on Sept 22, 2017 23:02:08 GMT
At least in my country, we use United States or America pretty much equally, as much as we say United Kingdom or Great Britain pretty much with the same frequency. Well, America isn't a person, though. If the country was called "the United States of Abraham Lincoln" would you have people refer to this country as "Abraham Lincoln" ? Menoth isn't a person. He's a God.
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