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Post by Netherby on Nov 14, 2017 7:49:29 GMT
So with the theme changes this list is coming back. I was unlucky enough to face it in a tournament and hadn't realised just how crazily powerful it is.
Afterwards I considered the maths and it turns out a SINGLE gryphon in charge range (12.5") of your caster is enough to reliably assassinate ANY caster so long as there is a second gryphon in run range (18.5"). With some forward planning both of those ranges can be extended an additional 2".
This means in order to not lose, you have to keep your caster between 13" and 15" away from all gryphons at all times.
On top of that the gryphons now cast their animus for free. So unless they run, every gryphon has dodge up all the time for free. Meaning you either need to surround a model or prevent it from advancing in some way if you plan on killing it...
The lists are running between 10 to 12 gryphons and they only need 2 alive to have a reliable assassination vector, so they will happily throw many of them into your face with dodge up not really caring if you manage to kill them.
P.S. I forgot to mention, gryphons ignore other models and forests when determining LOS. So don't think you can just hide your caster. If they are inside the 12.5" range, they can be charged unless you completely deny a landing spot. Obviously Una2 feat means they also ignore free strikes.
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Nov 14, 2017 8:09:30 GMT
I have had similar problems With Kaya 3 and gryphons. One Gryphon With synergy at 3 reliably kill a caster. my opponent has so far only used 5 of them, and Uhlans has the speed to Reach them and accuracy to hit them, but I dont think I could handle it if he used 10 or 12. Also, I think Uhlans is Our only way to reliably kill gyphons.
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Post by Netherby on Nov 14, 2017 8:23:13 GMT
Uhlans are good into them, but you can only expect them to kill 2 gryphons and ONLY if you can get the charge. If they just run into melee the Uhlans can't hit them.
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Nov 14, 2017 9:09:21 GMT
My opponent has not run them into mele yet, But it sounds effective. Vlad 2 feated Uhlans can kill more than 2, and charge farther than the gryphons run distance, but there are often Woods or something els which cuts Down on the Uhlans effective charge distance (but not the gryphons effective run distance).
After being assasinated the first time against the list, I have thought a lot, but the best (only?) answer I have founs so far is Uhlans. It is sad if that answer i so fragile that it falls apart by the griffons doing anythin so simple as running into contact.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Nov 14, 2017 9:35:51 GMT
12,5 isn't particularly long, especially when you factor in terrain. Also without Una's feat Griffons are pretty short ranged, so if your opponent keeps the feat until an assassination opportunity arises (not that good an idea IMO, because people just won't move into this 12'5" range early, why would they ?), you should quite easily get to attack them first.
So yeah, they hit really hard. But are also rather short ranged and squishy. Much better for attrition (trading two lights for a heavy) than assassination IMO.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 14, 2017 10:22:29 GMT
Didn't this list get toned down? What changed to make it so powerful again?
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Nov 14, 2017 10:50:29 GMT
It is still powerful, Una + Griffons have a lot of powerful tool especially when put together. Just (as with most OP lists) when it got toned down and stopped being so easy to play, many of the bandwagoners left it, proclaiming left and right that it's weak (because they stopped winning easily).
The smaller amount of good players who actually knew the list very well and felt good with its playstyle, stayed. Una2 was quite popular at the WTC for example and our Polish Circle player who had practised a lot with her, won all 6 WTC games IIRC (paired with Grayle).
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 14, 2017 10:51:06 GMT
You can also position models to block landing spots to your caster. As long as they're tough enough to survive whatever shooting might try to clear them out. Also, make use of walls and obstructions to limit the number of griffons that can get to a particular model.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Nov 14, 2017 11:14:29 GMT
12,5 isn't particularly long, especially when you factor in terrain. Also without Una's feat Griffons are pretty short ranged, so if your opponent keeps the feat until an assassination opportunity arises (not that good an idea IMO, because people just won't move into this 12'5" range early, why would they ?), you should quite easily get to attack them first. So yeah, they hit really hard. But are also rather short ranged and squishy. Much better for attrition (trading two lights for a heavy) than assassination IMO. Terrain is not much of a factor for the gryphons, because they can fly and ignore Woods when they charge. (Also when checking whether they can see their charge target).
I agree 12,5 is not all that much, and not nearly enough to charge my caster from outside of combat. But it is more than enough to get the carge against almost all I can put in my frontline. So they start doing attrition by charging my fronline (no feat involved).
Then, when I fight back, I have to consider that if even one of them survives (+ enough (can be far away) to get synergy to 3 (Kaya) or one to get flank (una), my caster better is 12,5 away from it, or I am dead.
12,5 away from my frontline may mean I must be outside the killbox, and also mean my caster may not be influencing the battle in a meaningfull way (my casters have no Access to arcnodes.)
As for killing them all, they have def 15 and Dodge. Dodge means thet if I miss, they move away, and may move closer to my caster. it takes two hits (at least) to kill them, so I need something accurately enough to hit them twice before I miss once. This means that unboosted MAT 7 or even 8 will not suffice.
So their short treath range makes the assasination treath avoidable, but not without suffering horrible in scenario and attrition.
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Nov 14, 2017 11:25:56 GMT
You can also position models to block landing spots to your caster. As long as they're tough enough to survive whatever shooting might try to clear them out. Also, make use of walls and obstructions to limit the number of griffons that can get to a particular model. Cheers, Dave Walls help a lot.
Blocing landing zones also clerly is a weapon in the arsenal against this army, but I have found it does not help all that much.
Clearing out landing zones, that can be done by other griffons, altough that obviously mean that more griffons need to be alive and Close.
In case of my opponent, who only uses 5 gryphons, that clearing is usually done by an Assault shot (Spray) from a charging pureblood. It can charge + spray quite far, is difficult to Block, and not much in Khador survives being hit by it, at lest not those thing which can be kept far behind the front without suffering in attrition.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Nov 14, 2017 11:33:56 GMT
As mentioned earlier, terrain is useful - Griffons can't land on Obstructions or Obstacles. Also read Flight rules again - you can hide behind forests or obstructions, only other models don't block LOS. So if you put your caster behind a forest they have to use their paltry 7" SPD to get you.
So - hug cover, block landing spots, watch the distance and you should be safe.
As for the general game plan, there are too many variables to cover. One thing I learned to take into account playing against Una is Primal. If she has sent Griffons against your heavies it is likely the one that attacks has had Primal put on it (vs Khador heavies in particular). It means you can ignore those Griffons next turn, because they will frenzy due to Primal and you can concentrate on their buddies who provided the Flank bonus.
Anything to overcome high DEF is useful - charging cavalry or knocked down/stationary effects (Sorsha?) come to mind.
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Nov 14, 2017 11:39:24 GMT
As mentioned earlier, terrain is useful - Griffons can't land on Obstructions or Obstacles. Also read Flight rules again - you can hide behind forests or obstructions, only other models don't block LOS. So if you put your caster behind a forest they have to use their paltry 7" SPD to get you. So - hug cover, block landing spots, watch the distance and you should be safe. As for the general game plan, there are too many variables to cover. One thing I learned to take into account playing against Una is Primal. If she has sent Griffons against your heavies it is likely the one that attacks has had Primal put on it (vs Khador heavies in particular). It means you can ignore those Griffons next turn, because they will frenzy due to Primal and you can concentrate on their buddies who provided the Flank bonus. Anything to overcome high DEF is useful - charging cavalry or knocked down/stationary effects (Sorsha?) come to mind. The gryphons have a special rule which let them ignore Woods. I am well aware thet the flying rules does not.
Sorsca freezing them sounds like a good plan. I will try that one.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Nov 14, 2017 11:40:19 GMT
They lost long leash, so it won't be hard to hide the caster from them. Otherwise just use the list you use against light spam Amon, Vyros, etc. Didn't this list get toned down? What changed to make it so powerful again? They finally got a theme where they can spam living beasts.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 14, 2017 11:40:28 GMT
Are Griffons immune to knockdown? One of the things I used to like about Torch and Decimators was that they didn't rely on knockdown to auto-hit, but since they dropped a point of POW I've cooled on them a lot. I really wish they were still P+S 18, even if that meant losing out somewhere else, because then they would arguably have a niche.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Nov 14, 2017 11:43:47 GMT
The gryphons have a special rule which let them ignore Woods. I am well aware thet the flying rules does not.
Sorsca freezing them sounds like a good plan. I will try that one.
Isn't it just one of the types of Griffons? Anyway, thanks for correcting my mistake! It leaves obstructions and cloud effects then if the opponent has all Scarsfels.
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