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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 6, 2017 19:47:18 GMT
This thread, originally popped into my head because I wanted to discuss what the community wanted to see from its Order of the Wall selections. Since FM didn't get a CID yet, I figured it'd be a good place to open it up to any discussion on the theme.
And now for your regularly scheduled programming:
Besides Warcaster Durst, the Order of the Wall currently exists as 3 selections with a total availability of 6 models. The choices are: Vilmon, Up to 3 Paladins, Up to 2 Champions
I'll start summarizing the current iterations with the basic Paladin. By itself, the Paladin of the Order of the Wall is a "tanky" combat solo. They have decent damage with weapon master and high MAT and can trade speed for ARM. Next we have High Paladin Dartan Vilmon. He is a super Paladin with better combat stats, Shield Guard as well as his Elite Cadre which allows other Paladins in the army retaliate. Finally we have the Champions of the Order of the Wall. As dragoons, Champions have increased durability and power with an impressive number of attacks and good defensive stats. They also are and allow nearby Paladins to become living bomb shelters to friendlies.
Now, the Order of the Wall is focused on being guardians of the weak and defenders of the faith as opposed to the orders of Exemplar and the fist which are weapons and agents of the Temple respectively. However, I don't feel this is properly reflected in some of the models. The basic Paladin for example does nothing for its fellow Menites. Meanwhile, while Vilmon's shield guard is appreciated, his elite cadre turns Paladins into retaliators rather than protectors, which can be fitting, but I feel is strange for someone who is famous for being a bodyguard. Finally, we have Champion's Girded which is a defensive ability, but runs counter to its other traits of strong attacks, defense, and speed.
This is what I'd personally like to see changed with Paladins models:
Paladin Name change to Guardian otOotW. Remove SaMS but increase ARM by 2-3. Perhaps they could be given a shield to accomplish that buff, but I'm hesitant to raise their offense by giving them another attack. From here I would give them a choice of prayer abilities that last a turn. One prayer would grant friendly models in range SacPawn[Guardian]. Another Prayer would grant the Righteous Vengeance that Vilmon currently provides. If this proves too strong for a 4pt model, I can see the removal of weapon master or the model only having 1 of the two prayers.
Vilmon Conversely, I would have Vilmon be 1-3pts of ARM lower than the regular Paladins to account for disuse of a shield and in exchange increase his DEF by 1-2. Next I would replace Shield Guard with the SacPawn prayer that Paladins have, but as a passive ability. Finally, I'd replace Elite Cadre[Righteous Vengeance] with Defensive Strike
Champion As a wrathful defender of Menoth, I'm mostly satisfied with the Champion. The only change I'd like to see is Girded replaced with a rule that synergizes better. My suggestion would be a new rule that grants parry to friendly models within 3-4". The idea for this rule is that the Champion is leading a charge and posing such a threat as to draw the attention of foes, allowing comrades to striker deeper into the heart of the enemy. Finally, I'd like to see the model renamed to the Avenger of the Order of the Wall for personal tastes.
Thoughts no these changes? Other ideas for models allowed in theme?
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 6, 2017 20:21:24 GMT
I like the direction you're taking Vilmon. I'd like to see Flying Steel somehow make its way back. Or perhaps he gains Blade Shield, along with a DEF bump. I'd keep him as having Shield Guard, however. I like the idea of him jumping in front of one specific target, rather than providing a blanket buff to things near him. Fits his flavor better.
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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 6, 2017 20:34:51 GMT
I like the direction you're taking Vilmon. I'd like to see Flying Steel somehow make its way back. Or perhaps he gains Blade Shield, along with a DEF bump. I'd keep him as having Shield Guard, however. I like the idea of him jumping in front of one specific target, rather than providing a blanket buff to things near him. Fits his flavor better. I started in the tail end of Mk2, so pardon my ignorance, but what is Flying Steel?
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Nov 6, 2017 22:12:26 GMT
I like the direction you're taking Vilmon. I'd like to see Flying Steel somehow make its way back. Or perhaps he gains Blade Shield, along with a DEF bump. I'd keep him as having Shield Guard, however. I like the idea of him jumping in front of one specific target, rather than providing a blanket buff to things near him. Fits his flavor better. I started in the tail end of Mk2, so pardon my ignorance, but what is Flying Steel? Back in MkI, Vilmon used to have more than one attack. I think it was 1d3+1, though it required a stance. MkI had a ton of crazy stuff, like Lylyth2 being able to put 52 shots into your deployment zone at the top of turn 1 and the Holy Zealots that got +4 to ARM and DEF whenever one died. It was nuts.
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Post by W0lfBane on Nov 6, 2017 22:33:18 GMT
Regular paladins gain shield guard normally. Keep the rest relatively the same and boom paladins that defend the faithful. Vilmon has always been a bit of an offensive individual so leadership vengeful strike makes sense. Maybe replace his shield guard wroth defensive strike cause it makes no sense since he has no shield.
Maybe the champ should give out leadership sturdy or something. So that the paladins don't get dragged out of position.
Also make a unit that is like paladin recruits. They are a 3 man unit with defensive line or the base to base +2 arm one. They haven't learned how to stance well and need their buddies to be higher armour. Also give them roadblock or something.
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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 6, 2017 22:44:58 GMT
Regular paladins gain shield guard normally. Keep the rest relatively the same and boom paladins that defend the faithful. Vilmon has always been a bit of an offensive individual so leadership vengeful strike makes sense. Maybe replace his shield guard wroth defensive strike cause it makes no sense since he has no shield. Maybe the champ should give out leadership sturdy or something. So that the paladins don't get dragged out of position. Also make a unit that is like paladin recruits. They are a 3 man unit with defensive line or the base to base +2 arm one. They haven't learned how to stance well and need their buddies to be higher armour. Also give them roadblock or something. I kinda like the idea for the unit, but how would if compare to a Vigilant? Ldr[Sturdy] While situational, Sturdy would be pretty useful on Paladins too.
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Post by W0lfBane on Nov 6, 2017 23:01:12 GMT
Regular paladins gain shield guard normally. Keep the rest relatively the same and boom paladins that defend the faithful. Vilmon has always been a bit of an offensive individual so leadership vengeful strike makes sense. Maybe replace his shield guard wroth defensive strike cause it makes no sense since he has no shield. Maybe the champ should give out leadership sturdy or something. So that the paladins don't get dragged out of position. Also make a unit that is like paladin recruits. They are a 3 man unit with defensive line or the base to base +2 arm one. They haven't learned how to stance well and need their buddies to be higher armour. Also give them roadblock or something. I kinda like the idea for the unit, but how would if compare to a Vigilant? Ldr[Sturdy] While situational, Sturdy would be pretty useful on Paladins too. I mean in this new world of theme forces that seems to be here to stay they would get taken in faithful masses and the vigilant would be taken everywhere else
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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 6, 2017 23:13:58 GMT
I mean in this new world of theme forces that seems to be here to stay they would get taken in faithful masses and the vigilant would be taken everywhere else But FM doesn't have a jack restriction does it? Then there's also the issue of durability such as boxes. They'd cost about the same too if it's about as much as other 30mm 3-model units. Other than counting toward theme points, I don't see any reason why I'd want to run this unit over a Vigilant except for slightly easier capitalization of Roadblock. Since it seems a lighter touch is what people seem to like, what does the forum think would be a better passive for regular Paladins, Righteous Vengeance or Shield Guard? And for Vilmon maybe just pick up Rapid Strike and dodge with a +1DEF?
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Post by W0lfBane on Nov 6, 2017 23:37:41 GMT
I mean in this new world of theme forces that seems to be here to stay they would get taken in faithful masses and the vigilant would be taken everywhere else But FM doesn't have a jack restriction does it? Then there's also the issue of durability such as boxes. They'd cost about the same too if it's about as much as other 30mm 3-model units. Other than counting toward theme points, I don't see any reason why I'd want to run this unit over a Vigilant except for slightly easier capitalization of Roadblock. Since it seems a lighter touch is what people seem to like, what does the forum think would be a better passive for regular Paladins, Righteous Vengeance or Shield Guard? And for Vilmon maybe just pick up Rapid Strike and dodge with a +1DEF? Yeah i guess but the unit can spread out of it wants to and protec more stuff. Their attacks would probably be more powerful and would benefit from other paladins leadership abilities. Also they would be faster so would be better with an army that wants to be speedy. If they need another ability to round out their usefulness that can easily be arranged
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Post by dicebedamned on Nov 8, 2017 13:24:30 GMT
Paladins should have passive Shield Guard, they have big ass shields and are supposed to defend the faithful. Steady would also be nice as part of Stone and Mortar stance. Advanced Move would solve the speed issue somewhat.
Vilmon should not get dodge or rapid strike in my opinion. His lack of a shield shouldn't suddenly make him Nicia lite. Just push his Def up a tad and have him steady, tough, 8 boxes. I'd like to see Granted: Repulsor like the light jack has. Its thematic - pala's rebounding enemies off their shields - and would be useful when defending against multi attack models.
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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 8, 2017 19:37:27 GMT
I love the idea of repel, however there are a few problems with adding to Paladins. First off, ARM16, 5boxes is not likely to survive anything stronger than light/medium infantry to make the push and if they stance up for a tougher ARM21, they're probably not going to be far enough forward for repel to come up.
I'd like to see base ARM go to 18, Stance go down to +2/3 and maybe add in Steady/Sturdy? Then coupled with a melee version of Shield Guard.
A more simple way of doing this could also be to just give Paladins a weak shield attack with Repel and Defensive Strike. That way, there low un-stanced ARM is negated by the out of sequence push.
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Post by spinkster on Nov 10, 2017 1:51:23 GMT
I was thinking about some kind of unit attachment for our milita units (Deliverers, Holy Zealots). A Paladin Initiate tasked to protect his charges or something along those lines.
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Post by charlzheimer on Nov 10, 2017 11:55:48 GMT
on a dumb side note.
did the attendant priest make merc units count torwards free solo's or not?
i thought i heard it was a warroom bug but i'm not sure now.
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Post by correlion on Nov 14, 2017 13:16:06 GMT
change girded to affect models in 3" give champs Elite Cadre instead of leadership
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Nov 14, 2017 17:52:49 GMT
I started in the tail end of Mk2, so pardon my ignorance, but what is Flying Steel? Back in MkI, Vilmon used to have more than one attack. I think it was 1d3+1, though it required a stance. MkI had a ton of crazy stuff, like Lylyth2 being able to put 52 shots into your deployment zone at the top of turn 1 and the Holy Zealots that got +4 to ARM and DEF whenever one died. It was nuts. Flying steel was d3 initial attacks. Frankly it kind of sucked since you most often rolled for 1 when you really need at least 2 or more attacks however, MK 1 Vilmon had Cornerstone (While B2B with one or more friendly Paladins they could not be knocked down and can only be moved during their activations. Incorporeal and trampling models could not move through them Shieldbreaker Stance - Vilmon and Paladins may forfeit movement and when they do, they could make one additional melee attack and the Paladins melee range increased to 2" and of course on top of it, he had Impervious Wall I think rules like that really made it worth bringing the Paladin brick and clumping them up. I was hoping to see more of that type of stuff. I guess we'll have to wait for a Paladin Unit As far as Zealots, it was the Monolith Bearer who was bonkers While in play, Zealots would get a +4 DEF and ARM buff when one of them was killed making them DEF 16 ARM 14 (or ARM 16 if the priest used the Prayer of Protection (+2 ARM), or under Kreoss with Protection of Menoth (aka Defender's Ward) with all that stacked, DEF 18, ARM 18! And if you killed the Monolith Bearer, Zealots gained Fiery Assault which meant the remaining unit got to run without being ordered to do so and could perform a combat action after running. That lasted for the rest of the game! along with the old Greater Destiny which aid they took no damage for one regardless of source like feats etc...
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