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Post by wolfchild on Nov 3, 2017 0:02:20 GMT
Just noted that there’s no Hordes equivalent of a Jack Marshall! Why not?!
When u take out a lesser warcaster, his Warmachine still function fine, just no focus. Its only the jack marshalled jacks go inert, but they can still be picked up by a caster. However if a (lesser) warlock is killed, the beast goes wild can do nothing but run?! Surely that should be the case if they were ‘beast marshalled’, but if the beast(s) was run by a lesser warlock, then they just should be able to be forced? .... until another warlock picks them up.
What am I missing?
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Nov 3, 2017 0:38:57 GMT
I will comment on this, when you kill a lesser war caster they go completely inert and just stand there doing nothing. When you kill a jack marshal they go autonomous which is activating normally with no focus. One of the big reason Hordes does not have jack marshals is that they don't especially need them as there is a whole lot more models that manage fury than models that give out focus. The closest thing to jack marshals is the Herding rule which gives a wider range of control for Warlock.
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Post by souleater on Nov 3, 2017 8:09:46 GMT
A semi-related question.
Is there a beast/Warlock affecting ability similar to Feedback for Jacks/warcasters?
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Nov 3, 2017 9:16:19 GMT
In company of iron they added Beast warden rule, it acts like jack marshall. Maybe if it work fine in CoI it will appear in WmH some time.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Nov 3, 2017 16:22:21 GMT
I'm sorry but you are exactly backwards. From the book - "If a ’jack marshal is destroyed or removed from the table, its warjack becomes autonomous (p. 67) but does not become inert. "
But when a lesser caster, like Alison Jakes 1, the jack becomes inert.
Just wanted to clarify.
When a lesser best caster dies the beast immediately looses all fury. Does not Generate fury. Does not make Frenzy checks. Can only Run. Can technically run 0" (or any distance you want any direction). Cannot make attacks. Any battlegroup commander can walk b2b and spend one fury to "tame" the wild beast and add it to it's own battlegroup. The beast must forfeit it's combat action the turn it is taken control of.
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Post by forthehorde on Nov 23, 2017 21:27:18 GMT
Yeah a jack marshal for warbeasts would be redundant. The whole reason they have jack marshals is focus allocation. Hordes doesn't have that problem. Our beasts generate our "focus".
Anything a jack marshal can do a lesser warlock can do and more.
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Post by elshinare on Nov 23, 2017 22:06:50 GMT
Una 1 is a beast marshal, kinda sorta? and you can gain control of a warbeast that loses it's warcaster by spending 1 fury while B2B correct?
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Post by wolfchild on Nov 23, 2017 23:25:09 GMT
Ok, so minor confusion over who goes inert and who stays active. But we still don’t have a Jack Marshall equivalent.
Lesser warlocks are equivalent to lesser warcasters so that is NOT what I’m talking about. (It doesn’t help that Una1 is one of the worst Lesser warlocks about, being restricted to such a poor selection of beasts and not really improving the beasts abilities, but in fact reducing their range and making herself vulnerable into the bargain. Her spells are just about trying to help herself and don’t work too well)
I’m hoping whydak is right and that CoI is a testing ground before it appears in WM/H.
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Post by finnigan2004 on Nov 25, 2017 1:38:54 GMT
I would suspect that what is being suggested is the stuff that Hordes used to have in Mk. II that allowed decent fury management. They wielded the knife just a little too much in Mk. III and/ or were a little too generous with the buffs to 'jacks.
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Post by elshinare on Nov 25, 2017 15:44:00 GMT
So so what exactly would you say the equivalent of a Jack marshal would be? a buffer up druid wilder? That could leach away 2 fury or however much?
After reading what druid wilder and Jack marshals do, they are pretty close to the same thing, although don't have any fancy abilities like the Jack marshal. maybe druid wilder should have 4 fury and a few of the same abilities of a Jack marshal?
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Post by wolfchild on Nov 25, 2017 16:55:27 GMT
Since our (circle’s) lesser warlock is pretty restricted and whimpy, maybe keep our druids as they are and make Una1 better and/or introduce another lesser warlock that’s more viable. (Tbf Una1 would possibly be viable again if she gave Long a Leash to her griffon battlegroup, but without buffs to Razorwing and/or Rotterhorn, I suspect she’d still just be running Scarsfells) I see that PP seem to be giving fury management buffs via the Fulcrum and other hidden bits. I can’t see why the Fulcrum should be good at removing Fury from beasts, but constructs I get, may be give a portion of that back into beasts somehow?
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Post by elshinare on Nov 25, 2017 20:39:10 GMT
I am thinking maybe making druid wilder available in all themes, fury 3, leeching, able to cast 1 animus from any warbeasts in her control range (6inches), and 1 spell of the warlock if she is in the warlock's command range. Keeping all her current stats and PC.
That is kinda Christmas land.
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Post by Forsaken on Nov 30, 2017 5:16:13 GMT
There is a rule called Beast master that allows a non-warlock to force a beast like a warlock but can't then remove said fury. The ua for druids had it in mark 2 and other factions still do. The shepherd in Everblight for example. It's closer to beast marshal then herding.
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Post by claptrap on Dec 1, 2017 21:48:18 GMT
Coming from the Warmachine side, be careful what you wish for.
I've been playing for a couple of years, and nobody has ever been happy with jack marshals. Just check the number of threads concerning 'fixing' or 'broken' jack marshals. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with them myself, but I think there are some conflicting expectations about them and they are generally more complicated than you'd think.
As I see it, it's a design issue. Jack marshals are supposed to be viable options that don't eclipse other options. If you take a jack marshal, you want to run a jack in excess of your caster's battlegroup, but don't want to the full focus support of a junior, AND you don't want the jack's performance to suffer (which is part of the 'conflicting expectations' thing I mentioned).
What you get is a solo with a complicated pseudo-focus rule that works better with some jacks than others, an optional drive that grants a special ability to confuse things further, and possibly some other abilities to justify the marshal's point cost that may or may not mesh with actual jack marshal stuff. They are weird bundles of special rules that no one is completely happy with.
I think Beast Wardens (or whatever) going the same way, because you have the same requirements, but with the added complication of Animi and Fury management. I'd be hard pressed to see what Beast Wardens would bring to the table that more Fury management models or junior warlocks couldn't do better or cheaper.
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Post by kuririnad on Dec 2, 2017 0:30:46 GMT
I think a beast Warden should do the following:
-can cast the beasts animus as a magic star action/attack -can give the same bonuses as jack marshals (crush, hurry, take aim, strike true) in addition to Unleash (cast it's own animus)
It should also have some cool special rules, like healing/transferring damage, army support, a drive (perhaps called a lash?)
You'd of course have to disallow lesser warbeasts to run on wardens. 3-5 points, 5 boxes, stats per role. Might be interesting to have essentially a combat solo on the front lines with an animal companion.
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