zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 4, 2017 12:37:31 GMT
I think that difference is merely misunderstood. I don't think GW's sculpts are superior to PP's at all. Their casting and material quality however is years ahead of PP's.
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Post by Aegis on Nov 4, 2017 13:55:13 GMT
Indeed - the superiority of GW models over PP is wildly overstated. They have great plastics, but that's about it When 99% of their game is made of plastic, and when the resin models are still superlative sculpts (even if the quality of the resin isn't as superlative), that is a pretty big point. PP models got better recently, but their soft plastic is still pretty bad, with very poorly placed mold lines and often sub-par quality. Hard plastic is way better, but still a lot of sculpts in general (almost everything except things released in MK3 imo) are less detailed than GW's ones. Finally, one of the very big advantages of GW sculpts is that they are totally customizable. You have not fixed or semi-fixed models (aside from starter sets). Almost everything can be assembled from scratch, chosing from many different legs, torsos, arms, heads and other details. The joins are standardized, so it's extremely easy to kitbash to give to a miniature of an unit the head or an arm of another unit, and to switch weapons and details. Everything remaining actually more easy to build than most PP models (still had nightmares about Nyss Hunters). Warhammer sadly suffer from a very bad ruleset, made with young boys as target and so made as simple and random as possible, but on the models part, GW is still miles ahead PP (even if luckly the gap is getting smaller). I think that the only game that gives some competition to GW on the models part is Malifaux.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Nov 4, 2017 13:55:17 GMT
Model aesthetics are a very subjective thing. Both companies have great examples and really bad ones (there's a ton of great examples for both, for really bad ones look at Despoiler for PP and for warhammer i tried to google up the name of the absolutely awful spikey boar thing, but i forgot its name, but its god awful - and i'm sure there will be people that think or post "Hey i like [despoiler/failpig]!").
Materials and processes though are less subjective. PP's soft plastics are mostly not high quality, though they did get better with time in most (though not all - looking at you Retribution halberdiers where almost every sculpt looks like it has a horrific forehead to groin massive scar of plastic flash that is impossible to clean without losing detail). I find that their hard plastic models are high quality, though lack some of the design ingenuity that GW's hard plastics have in terms of allowing for ease of customization and positioning. Fair being fair, that's probably a matter of time and experience, trial and error. Original GW plastics do not have the inborn malleability that today's do. Oddly, perhaps by coincidence, a lot of the soft plastics have some level of customization to them, probably because they were all mostly designed as multi-kits. Of course, some of the hard plastics were too (stormclad / the other jack that no one uses in that kit because its not the stormclad).
In terms of metal, i honestly prefer PP's most of the time to GW's. While its been a few years since i bought a new metal GW, they always seemed to be covered in flash and loaded up with mold release agent, where PP's typically were not. YMMV, ofc.
EDIT: I'd be remiss if i didn't touch on resin ; GW's resin - finecast - was atrocious, while forgeworlds was much better though still with some issues of bubbling / warping (make no mistake, Forgeworld's resin is usually high quality, and in contrast to finecast is like comparing the paleolithic tech to cloud computing). PP's resin's seem mostly high quality - the detail is crisp, the material has just a bit of flexion in it, but not to the awful levels of finecast, and the flash is mostly manageable (with some notable exceptions - good lord Loki's model has a lot of waste resin on it). On the whole, unless your a forgeworld nut, PP wins the resin race easily. If you enjoy taking out a second mortgage, Forgeworld has some showpiece kits that are truly stunning, but they aren't the kind of models you'll use every game (unlike PP's resin stuff), and they are extremely expensive (where PP's is reasonable, especially the combo resin/metal kits).
PP's ruleset is tighter, and more effectively "living" now. Despite a lot of internet yammering about "hard counters" and dropping lists into this or that, skill plays a very, very high role (though i'd argue probably less now in the age of pre-measuring, where some visual estimation skills that translated into effective baiting can be replaced simply by investing time into measuring). A good player can play a less than optimal list and will usually win over a mediocre skilled player playing the new internet netlisting hotness.
GW's is a lot looser with higher elements of luck ; because of the higher luck factor there is some quasi-ceiling to how much skill plays into things. It's a simpler ruleset, easier to pick up and certainly easier to master. Currently, you also know what you're getting and how it will behave for a while as the game is far less fluid than WM/H is - WM/H is currently in a state of near constant flux what with dynamic updates, erratas, and constant CID cycles. It remains to be seen if this state of flux will coalesce into something more stable in time (PP has stated they want to chill on the erratas, etc for instance, to reduce the perception of constant flux in the game).
Somewhat over simply, WM/H tends to be a more complicated intricate game, whereas Warhammer is a little more beer and pretzels. It used to be that getting into Warhammer was way, way more expensive, but it actually depends on if you're looking at Age of Sigmar (the successor to Warhammer Fantasy) or 40k. 40k is still crazy expensive, but AoS has some scaling to it depending on how you play that can make it very reasonable to buy in at first (in fairness, WM/H has a low initial buy in cost, but it scales quickly in terms of cost to getting fairly pricey to work up to the average sized games most communities play. Owning an entire faction at this point can put you close at older days Warhammer Fantasy levels of cost).
So both have pros and cons in my eyes. It honestly depends on what you're after.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 4, 2017 20:51:51 GMT
I don't believe warhammer (of old) is really that much more expensive. It is if you want everything in all configuarations. Im still not done collecting orcs and Goblins and can run a really big army and don't know what I spend on it over the years. I do know for my foot eldar, which I collected quickly in full metal right before finecrap reared it's ugly mug. Almost all of it was new and 700-750 euro netted me a 3400 point army, which is almost double a standardsize game. One 75 point list will be just as expensive as my standard footdar. Don't know how representative footdar is, but metal infantry usually weren't cheap in comparison.
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Post by safetyturtle on Nov 5, 2017 12:56:15 GMT
I've been playing Warhammer 40k since 2nd ed (15 years I think?) and have recently gotten into Warmachine (I played a few games in Mk1 but it's so long ago I can't remember much of anything) so my comment here is based more on my experience with WH40k and what I perceive Warmachine to be without having played a game yet, so keep that in mind.
Games Workshop is a model company that also makes rules so you can play with the models, they've said this themselves many times and it does show as, to me, their models are second to none, great quality and customization options. The rules are lacking and the thing that made me fed up with WH40k is how often the rules are changed, and not just like with Warmachine where jacks get a free focus point, but major things that change armies completely. One example being when it changed to 7th ed and made melee focused armies almost unplayable as units could now shoot when they get charged and models are removed from the front of a unit when shot.
It's also rather obvious that a few armies are being prioritized (and yes, as an Ork player of 15 years, I am a bit biased) and constantly get new models and army books. The way army books are released can also be annoying, as some armies will play with the same book for years without an update while others get several books, which leads to quite a lot of imbalance.
Don't get me wrong, I haven't quit the game altogether. The models are still amongst my favourites and the games (40k and AoS) have given me enough ideas for armies and conversions to last several lifetimes and the fluff of WH40k remain my absolute favourite lore of any game or sci-fi setting.
On the other hand, Privateer Press seems more like a company that makes games that "happens" to use models to play. The rules seem a lot tighter and I like that most of the factions seem to get new stuff around the same time (unlike in 40k where some armies have to wait several years while others get new stuff every other month *cough* Space Marines *cough*). Gotta admit that I*m not a fan of the models, however, I love the design of most of the stuff, but the quality of the "plastic" just isn't up to snuff, at least compared to what I'm used to (to be fair though, I own quite a few Forge World models, so it's a rather unfair comparison).
Currently, though, Warmahordes just appeals to me more, it's the first tabletop game where I actually want to get into the competitive scene and tournaments and is actually excited about playing and the rules. Haven't really read up on the lore yet though.
I guess if I have to do a tl:dr: if you prefer great models and freedom to do with those models as you please customization wise and casual narrative play, WH40k/AoS is the way to go. On the other hand, if you prefer tight rules, more balance, more of a competitive bend but with fairly mediocre quality models, WM/H is the way to go.
Sorry, that got a bit long winded...
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Nov 6, 2017 2:50:28 GMT
I find that their hard plastic models are high quality, though lack some of the design ingenuity that GW's hard plastics have in terms of allowing for ease of customization and positioning. I like to think that this is a Feature not a Flaw. I PREFER a lack of customization and positioning. I enjoy being able to look across the table and immediately recognize the models my opponent is using. I realize that not everyone else thinks this way, and that's okay. But you can't tout customization as a benefit, only a preference.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Nov 6, 2017 6:05:48 GMT
Customization IS a benefit, because, depending on your preference, you may do it or not. But if you are not given the option at all, this choice is taken away from you (or made much more difficult)
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Nov 6, 2017 8:18:00 GMT
Customization IS a benefit, because, depending on your preference, you may do it or not. But if you are not given the option at all, this choice is taken away from you (or made much more difficult) Reread my post. I like that the option is removed and feel the game benefits for it as a whole.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Nov 6, 2017 8:34:06 GMT
Cyel, you are thinking only about how customisation is a benefit as an option for you as a modeller. Regleant is saying that he sees it as a feature that this is an option that is not available to his opponents*. Two completely different things.
And I think the point that it doesn't matter just what you yourself do, but also what your opponents do, is a good point. What regleant points out is what the conversion policy was/is all about. Not making modelling more fun for you. But making it easier for your opponent to tell what stuff is. That's definitely a feature of WMH, not a bug, I think.
* Obviously it is available, it's just much more difficult than with Warhammer models is the point.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 6, 2017 9:05:14 GMT
This is interesting and makes me wonder about something. The diretroll kit has heads and arms that "belong" with each type of troll. How strict is this when you talk about mini's being recognisable? I want to assemble mine as a bomber and give him the raised left arm with the keg and the pyg on his back lighting it, but the clenched right fist and head of the blitzer because imo that looks better. I don't think anyone will have doubts as to which troll that is, but given the rules for weaponry should I use both kegarms to represent that he (potentially) has two ranged attacks?
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 6, 2017 9:18:11 GMT
Warhammer is a fun game with stable rules and nice minis. Warmachine is not.
Also, Warhammer doesn't need to rebalance EVERY UNIT one year after an edition change.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 6, 2017 9:20:17 GMT
A dire troll with bombs is a Bomber. Nobody will have any issue with that. It is also technically more correct as the bomber only had one ranged weapon istead of two, as Reload is not a second weapon.
I use wrong heads all the time and nobody will ever notice.
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Post by safetyturtle on Nov 6, 2017 10:09:10 GMT
Warhammer is a fun game with stable rules and nice minis. Warmachine is not. Also, Warhammer doesn't need to rebalance EVERY UNIT one year after an edition change. Actually, they do need to, they just don't which means that it's not uncommon for half of an army to suddenly be near unplayable.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 6, 2017 10:19:52 GMT
I'm going to be harsh here and say that PP needed to rebalance half the models in the game, while GW cannot rebalance theirs at all. Warhammer (doesn't even matter which one) simply doesn't have the depth to allow for different niches for different models. The issues these games face are very different, but at least WMH could become close to balanced and is in fact approaching that ideal state more and more, if slowly.
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Post by safetyturtle on Nov 6, 2017 10:37:00 GMT
Also have to remember that GW isn't that concerned about balanced, they constantly make it clear that they're a model company first (and there's nothing wrong with that) where PP seem to be more concerned with the rules and competitive side of things (also nothing wrong with that).
Both games just appeal to different aspects of the hobby as a whole.
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