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Post by wolfchild on Nov 15, 2017 20:40:28 GMT
Before I got any success I watched a LOT of battle reports on YouTube. I also played a bunch of battle group only games and a journeyman. It can be frustrating, but small games can teach u to get more out of ur current models. It also means ur experienced meta group, that are used to 75pt games have to adjust back down too. ... if can level the field a little and let u focus on a few models at a time. ... work on smaller synergies
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Post by LoS Jaden on Nov 16, 2017 6:45:14 GMT
I deliberately don't post much about Circle, since I left the faction for many of the issues that the OP and many others are experiencing now. That being said, I've been called out specifically so I'll do my best here. Circle has become a faction where you often need to play a gunline in order to win, often need to look for assassinations, and cannot compete with other factions infantry and heavies one on one. It's a harder faction to play now than it has ever been, and there are some matchups I legitimately don't think are playable at the moment. The Wold CID has definitely got the potential to shake things up - I think Baldur 1 and 2, Wurmwood, and Krueger 2 can become quite deadly with the new Woldwarden rules. The problem is, they sort of encourage a very "shooty" army that can then fight in melee which doesn't feel at all like what I signed up for when I started playing Circle. My advice? Take a break, play another faction, and enjoy the game for the amazing balance that it has for the majority of things. I wouldn't recommend this to anyone currently enjoying Circle - hats off to you and keep at it - but if you're really having no fun, borrow something from someone else and play for a while. The game is in a great place, even if Circle isn't in such an awesome spot right now. For general advice on Scenarios and SR 2017 in general, check out my Scenario guides (shameless plug, but no one else has written any for me to recommend so...) at www.loswarmachine.com - they're under the general warmachine thread for at least a few more days before we do a fairly large shake up, and our next episode of the Line of Sight podcast talks about building lists and playing for SR 2017. That will be coming out tomorrow.
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Post by beastofwar on Nov 16, 2017 14:20:09 GMT
I agree with you.
It seems the people I face have armies I cannot compete with atm.
Gunlines are great but against arm 23 I don't think so. Gun lines in our army pow 12 so it's not even possible to hurt the armies I face.
I understand the maouvering of our beasts is good but if it takes 38 points of beasts to kill 12-18point jacks beasts means our army is broken and not in an op way.
I have watched battle reps but the only time we win is if we face l infantry. If we win against h infantry or h arm beasts the lists are filled with minions. So I ask... are they playing circle or minions.
Looked at the new beast we got. The wold Wight and though "oh great another thing that smashes light infantry. Skorne basically got a circle caster. So do PP care about circle? We don't have any lesser beasts or packs. Our troops die when you look at them funny. Our beasts die when you sneeze on them.
A very good minion player told me look at your army differently. He said that satrys are good. They can slam he said. I used a wold warden to charge an aradus soldier. Landed my initials then got a free slam. I did 12 points of damage. The next turn he charged me and killed my wold warden easily. Still had 2 fury to spare. I think they cost the same! Why slam something away when it's just gonna get up and kill you?
I think the only way circle can win against these lists is caster kill. That's makes it very limited to a few casters who can do this. I am gonna take a break from the game. I'm gonna try and not play another faction as I just feel cheated when I look at what my opponents can do.
PP are GW mark 2
Can you remember when our army could get things done? Lol
Guys I am greatfull for the feed back. Sorry if I seem negative but I feel like I've been mugged by a kid who then outfought me and took my candy lol.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Nov 16, 2017 15:01:15 GMT
Woah woah woah. Circle struggles in the current meta - fully agree. PP is the second incarnation of GW? Couldn't disagree more. You seem to continually come back to Skorne as your example of things you can't beat so let's have some real talk. ARM 23 requires a combination of a 22 point warbeast in Tiberion and a 6 point warbeast using 2 fury to cast an animus that we can straight up ignore with Wraithbane. Alternatively, it's on a speed 3 heavy that even with access so Skorne's speed buffs we outthreat with nearly everything I can think of. The typical gunline list I'm bringing has 2-3 Woldwyrds and a Celestial Fulcrum and the Pureblood for Wraithbane. If you get Wraithbane on the Fulcrum and two Woldwyrds, you're looking at 9 damage from the fulcrum, another 7 from each of the wraithbaned Wyrds, and two more from the Pureblood which is 25 damage, or nearly one rounding one of the toughest heavies in the game with no debuffs. If you bring Wurmwood or Mohsar with this list, you can change that math significantly with Curse of Shadows. Suddenly the Fulcrum does 15, the two Wraithbaned Wyrds each do 11, the other Wyrd now does about 7, and the Pureblood does 2 for a total of 45 damage - that's nearly a colossal. This math gets a little less good against an Aradus - but again, don't shoot at those things. You can charge and kill them pretty easily with lots of our models. Here are a couple of battle reports of Circle into Skorne. The first one is a Kaya three absolutely trashing a Naaresh list (arguably the hardest armor brick to break in Skorne) and the second is a mixed arms Wurmwood list destroying Morghoul 3. www.loswarmachine.com/druiddice/2017/02/battle-report-67-kaya-3-vs-naaresh.html?rq=skornewww.loswarmachine.com/druiddice/2017/6/20/battle-report-112-wurmwood-vs-morghoul-3?rq=skorneAs for slams, this is where we get into the weeds a little bit because quite frankly they take a lot of practice to use properly. Were you playing with the new and improved Woldwarden at this point? Did you have access to the Stoneshapers enrage ability? Those are both very relevant pieces of information. Also, against a normal heavy, if you cripple their spirit and then slam them away, they cannot be forced to stand up during your opponents next control phase, rendering them more or less useless. Aradus have steady (I believe) so that doesn't apply. Slamming another heavy into a wall or building or another heavy while keeping them in melee with you is a fantastic way to expand the amount of damage you get. It also clears zones very well. But yeah, if you don't have a follow up, don't slam the thing, just kill it. A stoneshaper buffed up Woldwarden with a free charge is going to do 33 damage to an Aradus on average dice - that's a dead Aradus. The Aradus that came back into your Warden probably had Enrage from the beast handlers at very minimal and could have had other buffs too. You can't compare the two beasts without taking that into account. At this point, I would NOT recommend taking a break from the game if it's going to foster in you a feeling of being cheated. Privateer press has no interest in Circle continuing to perform poorly, and to be honest, the new national meta actually favors Circle quite heavily right now. I played in the Champions at WMW and also in the Invitational and infantry is EVERYWHERE. Saying that PP has cheated us or that they're GW mark 2 is a good way to pass off the blame for you not enjoying the game, but it's not going to fix anything and you're not going to feel better about it by doing so. The guys on the PP dev team are smart, nice, and very concerned about getting this game as close to perfectly balanced as possible. Give them a chance to fix things that are broken - they've been doing a great job so far. Circle is one of the best answers in the game to Grymkin, a faction that is a blind spot to most, they have good answers to most warmachine factions not named Khador, and they have game into everything in Hordes largely thanks to Doppler Bark on the argus. If you're still with me, I would suggest reading this piece: www.loswarmachine.com/druiddice/2017/05/battle-reports-94-and-95-losing-and.html?rq=skorneAnd then I would PM me and talk about your lists, how you can build them better, and how to play them well. Circle is in a rough spot, sure, but there's also a TON of new things to try that no one has yet and they just might be gems.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 16, 2017 20:45:06 GMT
I agree with you. It seems the people I face have armies I cannot compete with atm. Gunlines are great but against arm 23 I don't think so. Gun lines in our army pow 12 so it's not even possible to hurt the armies I face. I understand the maouvering of our beasts is good but if it takes 38 points of beasts to kill 12-18point jacks beasts means our army is broken and not in an op way. I have watched battle reps but the only time we win is if we face l infantry. If we win against h infantry or h arm beasts the lists are filled with minions. So I ask... are they playing circle or minions. Looked at the new beast we got. The wold Wight and though "oh great another thing that smashes light infantry. Skorne basically got a circle caster. So do PP care about circle? We don't have any lesser beasts or packs. Our troops die when you look at them funny. Our beasts die when you sneeze on them. A very good minion player told me look at your army differently. He said that satrys are good. They can slam he said. I used a wold warden to charge an aradus soldier. Landed my initials then got a free slam. I did 12 points of damage. The next turn he charged me and killed my wold warden easily. Still had 2 fury to spare. I think they cost the same! Why slam something away when it's just gonna get up and kill you? I think the only way circle can win against these lists is caster kill. That's makes it very limited to a few casters who can do this. I am gonna take a break from the game. I'm gonna try and not play another faction as I just feel cheated when I look at what my opponents can do. PP are GW mark 2 Can you remember when our army could get things done? Lol Guys I am greatfull for the feed back. Sorry if I seem negative but I feel like I've been mugged by a kid who then outfought me and took my candy lol. Aradus soldier costs 2 more points than a Woldwarden and are dedicated combat beasts with SPD3. Woldwardens have a unique utility that nothing in skorne can actually achieve (geomancy) while also being more survivable than the typical skorne warbeast (arm 18 35 boxes > arm 19 28-30 boxes, in my experience, unless you're being nickel and dimed by weak infantry over many attacks). Aradus soldiers are the second highest damage dealer (non character) in faction, just behind Bronzeback titans. I've had a lot of trouble vs wold wardens when they are used to geomancy out utility abilities. With new stoneshaper they hit hard at PS18, they can never frenzy, and when you give them access to abilities like TK, stranglehold, gallows etc on some of circles casters its craaaaaazy good. like, what an amazing ability that i'm jealous of. Basically don't compare apples to oranges, which is what a woldwarden (utility beast who can fight pretty well) is to an aradus soldier (basically a dedicated combat beast who costs 2 more points). Guardians are a better comparison, and guardians are tankier, hit just as hard under stoneshaper except come with auto knockdown. Both are steady. You gain shield guard. Exact same threat range. Exact same cost. Although i wouldn't agree with the above posters battle reports as good examples of anti skorne play. Morghoul3 is not a circle drop and has nothing in his kit that helps against the good circle lists and spams infantry. Naaresh is also a potato in general and is one of skornes lowest ranking casters because basically all he does is feat and cast lamentation. But also i'm sorry but that Naaresh list in that report is a joke... like... he spammed a few extremely expensive characters and then brought a 6pts of support just to pathfinder naaresh or give him 2" movement on cyclone (the +2" movement doesnt work on charges). Usual naaresh lists involve cheaper beasts rather than the premium ones since the feat matters more, you get more scenario ability, and you don't trade horribly off feat turn
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 17, 2017 5:14:21 GMT
*gasp* someone who actually gets what I was originally saying like 2 pages ago However, after trying to format lists, I see that you guys do have some major issues with brick busting. When you try to go heavy into your high PS units you have to pay a hefty price for them. Due to increased speed and utility, the point values jump the moment you add damage into the equation for your beasts. I think using something like the wild argus to first lower your intended targets defense down to an almost auto hit before bringing in your heaviest hitters is probably your best bet (except against constructs). Since you'll be needing fury to buy attacks and boost damage rolls, it'd be nice to negate the need for boosting attack rolls. After that it's just delivery since you guys have your synergies built into each other instead of a whole separate unit (ignoring your new solo). I should mention, unless Skorne is using Xerxis2, we are terrible at making it across the board with all our glorious beasts. Our beasts do not have native pathfinder and only require it through our Gladiator Titan's animus (jalaam being an exclusion), thus killing him revokes pathfinder on the max of 2 or 3 beasts we'd be able to put it on. Our model/unit speed buffs are best used on our units, thus the "possible threat range" of our beasts is actually much shorter than your opponent is letting on. The likelihood of a titan charging under both rush and quicken is almost null accept under the most niche lists, like a mak1 imperial warhost list. Because of this, titans are at speed 4 + 2 movement from rush + 3 off the charge + 1 range = a maximum of 10 inches of real threat; tiberian while under X2 would still only be 13. Feral Warpwolf warping for speed = speed 8 + 3 for the charge + 1 for reach (2 if you bother to give him lightning tendrals but that's like us using quicken) = 12 inches of threat before any placement effects that you guys have plenty of, whether it's moving your own units or your enemies. A big issue here is just aggression. Skorne is a ground and pound type of faction, all major beasts and units are made for straight engagements, not round about fights. Because of this, you'll be seeing us use our maximum engagement 24/7. Circle is more careful and tricky, so you tend not to play straight forward, though you could with balder + bones theme. If Skorne can engage a unit of ranged infantry by running, we'll do so. You guys have prowl and stealth x.O; Put some forests in front of us and watch what happens. suddenly we start running into your units instead of charging at them x.x; Skorne can overcome their weaknesses through play style and personal skill. Circle can over come theirs by playing outside your normal comfort zone and adding a few more doves to your already jam packed top hat.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 17, 2017 5:35:17 GMT
I should mention, unless Skorne is using Xerxis2, we are terrible at making it across the board with all our glorious beasts. I don't want to seem mean, but i have never once had trouble crossing the board with skorne's amazing roster with almost any of our warlocks. We have SPD8 arm 20 turtles, SPD7 flight archidons, and excellent infantry who can screen. This doesn't include our character heavies like Molik Karn who are top notch. It might be an issue of personal skill if you can't cross the board with skorne beasts
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Post by elshinare on Nov 17, 2017 6:44:19 GMT
Curious why everyone has a focus on skorne? Any other matchup people have trouble with for scenario? If you run up against certain lists do you just go for assassination first, scenario secondary? Any models that if they were just slightly (or a lot) better would make the list you run more viable for scenario wins? example for me is wanting rip horn satyr to have higher def or some sort of self buff for def or arm.
I've watched the game for a few years but just got into it this past couple months, it seems that scenario is not supposed to be the objective of the game but a secondary win con.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 17, 2017 6:49:35 GMT
ssshhh don't mention the derp turtles x.O; I don't want them to get nerfed -.- Archidons are great for fodder and awesome units against leap lists but I'm not to hot on them. I prefer to abuse them for long leash with hexy2 but that's a skorne form discussion. Our infantry, which I agree is good compared to some factions, are not "glorious beasts." Character heavies should also be avoided in the subject of regularity. I'm going to guess you like playing the crazy cat lady and WoD; as they have no issues with board control and are the two same lists you see at nationals all the time. I like to try and branch out rather than play lists I know I'm going to win with and have found the cracks in several factions by doing so, like denying cygnar lightning really limits their options, or aiming boosts on inaccurate weapons can still hit 9 def rather reliably. It was great using catapults against khador heavies and still dealing damage
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Post by killroundears on Nov 17, 2017 6:59:35 GMT
ssshhh don't mention the derp turtles x.O; I don't want them to get nerfed -.- Archidons are great for fodder and awesome units against leap lists but I'm not to hot on them. I prefer to abuse them for long leash with hexy2 but that's a skorne form discussion. Our infantry, which I agree is good compared to some factions, are not "glorious beasts." Character heavies should also be avoided in the subject of regularity. I'm going to guess you like playing the crazy cat lady and WoD; as they have no issues with board control and are the two same lists you see at nationals all the time. I like to try and branch out rather than play lists I know I'm going to win with and have found the cracks in several factions by doing so, like denying cygnar lightning really limits their options, or aiming boosts on inaccurate weapons can still hit 9 def rather reliably. It was great using catapults against khador heavies and still dealing damage Mak2 and rasheth are two of my least played casters due to my aversion of playing overpopularised meta casters. Which does result in additional wins when people are much less practices against you. My nost played currently are: jalaam, morg3, hexy2, mak1 and a bit of mordikaar. On topic ti rhe poster above who i forgot to quote - scenario is usually secondary yeah. This ia due to it being hard to plan for it (against some lists and some scenarios are more dead than others) but excellent scenario casters like krueger2 can generally jump on very small openings that others cant. I think k2 is a solid example of one of the best
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 17, 2017 7:00:02 GMT
Curious why everyone has a focus on skorne? Any other matchup people have trouble with for scenario? If you run up against certain lists do you just go for assassination first, scenario secondary? Any models that if they were just slightly (or a lot) better would make the list you run more viable for scenario wins? example for me is wanting rip horn satyr to have higher def or some sort of self buff for def or arm. I've watched the game for a few years but just got into it this past couple months, it seems that scenario is not supposed to be the objective of the game but a secondary win con. Victory is the most important condition, however winning on scenario, or simply scoring more scenario points, is "worth" more during serious competitions. Basically, after 3 or 4 death clock matches, it gets whittled down to those with the most wins. If more than 8 (or 4 I forget which) players are tied for the most wins, then they use scenario points to choose those who continue on. This means you can get all victories and not even place, simply because you didn't score enough scenario points. Because of this, if a faction cannot compete for scenario points while playing for the win (regardless of if its an assassination victory or a scenario victory) then they lack the ability to be played competitively on a tournament level. As for normal gaming? a win is a win!
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Post by chocobsessed on Nov 17, 2017 15:04:20 GMT
Victory is the most important condition, however winning on scenario, or simply scoring more scenario points, is "worth" more during serious competitions. Basically, after 3 or 4 death clock matches, it gets whittled down to those with the most wins. If more than 8 (or 4 I forget which) players are tied for the most wins, then they use scenario points to choose those who continue on. This means you can get all victories and not even place, simply because you didn't score enough scenario points. Because of this, if a faction cannot compete for scenario points while playing for the win (regardless of if its an assassination victory or a scenario victory) then they lack the ability to be played competitively on a tournament level. As for normal gaming? a win is a win! I don't understand anything you're saying here. A faction isn't considered more or less competitive based on how many scenario points they get on average - a win is a win even at high-level competitive play. Scenario points isn't even the first tiebreaker to determine placing (after number of wins), that's based on strength of schedule (number of wins by opponents) which is completely outside of your control. Basically, placing only makes sense if you win all your games, after that it essentially comes down to black magic.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 17, 2017 22:54:38 GMT
Could you place a link to that information? The last time I went to a local tourny (I generally just play at my local game shop since we already have world tourny level players) strength of schedule wasn't taken into consideration, but this is the second time I've heard it. Victory is always the most important condition, regardless, yet being able to win on both attrition and assassination is vital to any faction. Scenario is considered important because, against some lists, it is a vital way to win, or better, not lose.
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Post by chocobsessed on Nov 18, 2017 0:11:26 GMT
Could you place a link to that information? The last time I went to a local tourny (I generally just play at my local game shop since we already have world tourny level players) strength of schedule wasn't taken into consideration, but this is the second time I've heard it. Victory is always the most important condition, regardless, yet being able to win on both attrition and assassination is vital to any faction. Scenario is considered important because, against some lists, it is a vital way to win, or better, not lose. files.privateerpress.com/op/2017/LnL/Steamroller%20Rules%202017.pdfYour local events are not running by the official steamroller rules - high level competitive balance doesn't exist without them, trust me.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 18, 2017 15:15:34 GMT
Yeah as much as I hate SoS sometimes it’s basically the way they keep people from points farming. At really big events the scenario tiebreaker actually can become relevant though.
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