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Post by Fudly on Oct 27, 2017 4:26:39 GMT
I've played 83 sr2017 games.
I won 17 by assassination, 19 by attrition, 8 by scenario, 1 by deathclock, and 1 by my opponent failing to assassinate me. I lost 6 by assassination, 21 by attrition, 2 by scenario, 4 by deathclock, and 2 by failing to assassinate.
Winning by attrition means the lack of models directly caused the game to end whereas a scenario win means the game could have continued if not for points.
The reason you're not doing well is this: "I run either Kromac1 or Krueger2 and from model collection I can only benefit from the Devourer theme so far." You don't own a list that has a game into ranged or armor. Luckily, devourer's host is our best theme, so I'd recommend picking up krueger1 to play into ranged lists and Mohsar to play into armor. Both are $10ish.
Krueger1 devourer's host can be a solid ranged drop that also plays well into ghost fleet (depending on the list's composition). Mohsar's devourer's host is probably not a great armor answer, but it's probably the best you can do in devourer's host theme.
If you told us what you have, we'd be able to suggest lists.
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 27, 2017 13:06:08 GMT
Are you guys not thinking of Krueger2 with CID wolds? Geomancy just gets better the more you have, it's one thing to risk a gallows and quite another to have 2 or 3 at your disposal... He gets the best threat out of our BE. I think he can be at the top of circle again. I was just looking at that this week. He seems like he'd be really strong with three geomancers. That gives you the option to lay down a very wide set of lightning fields on the approach and then switch to fishing mode with gallows if the opportunity presents itself. The original scenario master may have exactly what it takes to play SR2017. Now if only we can get the no running/charging clause added back to his feat like trolls did on Grim
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Post by jisidro on Oct 27, 2017 13:59:53 GMT
Are you guys not thinking of Krueger2 with CID wolds? Geomancy just gets better the more you have, it's one thing to risk a gallows and quite another to have 2 or 3 at your disposal... He gets the best threat out of our BE. I think he can be at the top of circle again. I was just looking at that this week. He seems like he'd be really strong with three geomancers. That gives you the option to lay down a very wide set of lightning fields on the approach and then switch to fishing mode with gallows if the opportunity presents itself. The original scenario master may have exactly what it takes to play SR2017. Now if only we can get the no running/charging clause added back to his feat like trolls did on Grim That's my idea as well and would be another week of Circle Christmas.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 27, 2017 14:12:38 GMT
I've played 83 sr2017 games. I won 17 by assassination, 19 by attrition, 8 by scenario, 1 by deathclock, and 1 by my opponent failing to assassinate me. I lost 6 by assassination, 21 by attrition, 2 by scenario, 4 by deathclock, and 2 by failing to assassinate. Winning by attrition means the lack of models directly caused the game to end whereas a scenario win means the game could have continued if not for points. The reason you're not doing well is this: "I run either Kromac1 or Krueger2 and from model collection I can only benefit from the Devourer theme so far." You don't own a list that has a game into ranged or armor. Luckily, devourer's host is our best theme, so I'd recommend picking up krueger1 to play into ranged lists and Mohsar to play into armor. Both are $10ish. Krueger1 devourer's host can be a solid ranged drop that also plays well into ghost fleet (depending on the list's composition). Mohsar's devourer's host is probably not a great armor answer, but it's probably the best you can do in devourer's host theme. If you told us what you have, we'd be able to suggest lists. Nice record. Do you prefer assassination or scenario? Also, I would argue Bones of orboros is just as good as Devo Host. streetpizza and jisidro I am actually planning on running krueger 2 in bones. I think it has a lot of potential into cryx. Lightning storm is going to be really good into all the shieldwall, wall of steel, infantry arm skew floating around. Even bane riders can take damage from Pow 10's
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 27, 2017 18:59:21 GMT
Have you heard of the advanced maneuvers youtube channel? They're a really good source of lists and strategies that I like to watch in my free-time. It helps that it also often features our resident Minions mod Gaston. I still like Advanced Maneuvers but I think they've lost a lot of their mojo and quite a few of mk3 reports featured mediocre or even really poor play. The visual quality, though, is always top notch and I love how they are not afraind to set up really interesting and challenging terrain (even some time ago, when a lot of players used to think terrain is unnecessary in WM&H). I recommend Arcane Assist now. Their understanding of the game and the way they play show they're really great players. They often feature both original lists and meta boogeymen and explain their inner workings. I've learned much more from their excellent reports than I have from Advanced Maneuvers videos recently.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 27, 2017 19:44:54 GMT
You can always watch both... I watch arcane assist, advanced maneuvers, and Not snakes gaming. I don’t see the problem with having players that are not top tier like Tim banky. I learn just as much, if not more from mistakes and play errors as I do from a a game excecuted by 2 upper level players. Both have thier merits.
Also, I’m local to the advanced maneuvers area so I can say the guys on the Chanel are awesome.
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Post by wolfchild on Oct 28, 2017 22:11:38 GMT
Cryptix I’ve seen a few of the Advanced Maneuvers ones, but they rarely show the older casters as I mentioned. Perhaps I just need to change to new ones myself and learn to write lists more, rather than make do with the stuff I have. I got fairly good at making do but it can’t last
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Post by wolfchild on Oct 28, 2017 22:42:41 GMT
Ok folks, here’s what I’m working with if it helps: Kaya1 Kromac1 Krueger2 Warpwolves: Feral, Pureblood, Stalker, Ghetorix Griffons: Razorwing, Scarsfell Gnarlhorn Satyr Gorax Wild Argus 2 Tharn: Ravagers 6 and 4, Chieftain, Shaman, Whitemane Bloodtrackers 10, Nuala Bloodweavers 6, Night Witch Wolfriders 5, Champion Watpborn Skinwalkers 5, Alpha Druids 6, Overseer Shifting Stones, Stoneward Una1 Druid Wilder Blackclad Wayfarer Reeve Hunter Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew
I think that’s everything. As you can see I chose a lot of this stuff by what it looks like rather than effectiveness, hence why u won’t see any wolds present.
Any assistance greatly appreciated
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Post by Fudly on Oct 29, 2017 6:47:50 GMT
Your collection is very solid. For more armor cracking (if you even need more armor cracking, I don't know what your opponents play), you probably want another warpwolf (which you should magnetize), scarsfell, shifting stones (without the UA), and a wayfarer. Then you should be able to make call lists with anyone but Una2. Kaya3 is the most popular non-Una choice, but Kaya2 and Kromac2 are also worth considering. Your tharn collection is great. Death wolves are the main thing you're missing, followed by another chieftain and 2 ravagers to fill the second unit. I should mention that I don't own enough tharn to play competitive devourer's host lists, so my host lists are theoretical. Kaya1 is probably your best armor cracker right now. conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j3Q4O5K5l545f5f2N4Z4_525w The idea is to jam with your tharn while Kaya yoyos Ghetorix. Wurmwood is usually our best ranged answer. Something like this should work well: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j5v4O4M5lc9545f5f4Z4_525w I also suspect it would have game into ghost fleet and coven dark host. I've heard Krueger1 is also a solid ranged/ghost fleet answer. I would try something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j404O5Kfrc9545i4Z4_525w56 but most tharn lists run double max ravagers with double chieftains. Mohsar could also run tharn well. conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j4w4O5H5H5l4zc9544Z4_525w He'd be decent at armor cracking, and have good assassination potential. You're pretty close to a good Kromac1 list. conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0W4q4O5K4M5H5H5l5A5g5gc95f5f2NKromac1 is a lot of fun, but he doesn't answer ranged or heavy armor. I'm not sure if he has game into ghost fleet, but he'll eat banes all day. If we knew what your opponents play, we could probably point you to something more specific.
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Post by wolfchild on Oct 29, 2017 10:01:14 GMT
Fudly Thanks, I’ll try to get time n look at those links, must confess I love the Tharn Ravagers mini feat, so 2nd Chieftain is a great tip. Never got my wayfarer to do much in larger games, but perhaps that’s why I need 2. My opponents are: Legion x2, one of which has just about everything, so unpredictable about which list he’ll bring, inc changing caster, though until recently he was going tentacle crazy, the other favours Rhyas as caster, fairly small collection w archers and orguns. Cryx, again has almost everything, but favours ghost fleet at the moment (changing caster most games). Menoth, heavy on jacks and Daughters of the flame ever present. Mercenaries, both Cephalyx and Llaelese focused. Often brings Galleon and heavy shooting w Mules etc and solos. Khador x2, big collection again, tending toward jack heavy and/or Winter Guard, only seen him using butcher variants but know he has others, other player has the light cavalry and lots of kayazy. There’s a fair mix there. Most frequent opponents are the big collection Cryx, Legion, and Menoth/Merc guys. All but the Khador guys have Collossals/Gargantuans available to them, but they have behemoth anyway.
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Post by Fudly on Oct 29, 2017 16:28:58 GMT
Our faction is stupidly dependent on wayfarers. Circle math is terrible. Say you were to primal your 19 point stalker to kill a 10 point marauder. If you have to pay for a charge, you have a 63% chance of killing it (aka an almost 40% chance of losing the game). With a free charge, it goes up to 90%. Plus if you make a call list, you're pretty guaranteed to have 3 free slots, so you most likely want 2 wayfarers and a wilder. They're also pretty mandatory in bones of orboros/secret masters. Legion doesn't appreciate Wurmwood, wild arguses, or mat/rat buffs. You straight up have to play krueger1 or Wurmwood to have a game into ghost fleet. Menoth: Kaya3 or Kaya1 looks decent into that. There's barely any mercs in my meta, so I can only guess wurmwood would be ok against their shooting. Heavy jack khador is never an easy matchup for us. I'd look at Kaya3. You're basically trying to stay in the game long enough to sneak in an assassination. Wurmwood is good against winter guard. Krueger1 would also be great against winterguard, but he'd struggle against any khador jacks. I would definitely get Wurmwood. I think conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j5v4O4M5lc9545f5f4Z4_525w will play well into a lot of what you're facing. Wurmwood is a high skill cap caster. Remember you can move your own stuff with hellmouth. Kaya3 also looks like a good choice. She's probably our best armor breaker, and she should also play well into non-shooting legion, and high def infantry. I don't own Kaya3, but a lot of people really like her. This is the Kaya3 build I would want to try: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0WgU4O4M5H5H5l4z5A5g5g0Ofl5f5fbut most people run her without merc infantry. Something like: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0WgU4O4I4M5H5H5l4z4z5A5g5g5f5fKeep in mind that you can always proxy stuff, especially if you're not sure about purchasing it.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 29, 2017 16:48:11 GMT
Based on your collection I think you should try and focus on living models till you get a better feel of the faction.
Wurmwood can play into almost any theme right now (except secret masters but that theme sucks anyway) and he also plays excellent out of theme. But honestly I find him best with sprinkled constructs and the fulcrum. So I would actually recommend Krueger 1 in Devo’s host over him. Only because you have so much Tharn!
Devourers Host is an excellent theme for handling a lot of different match ups. Ravagers give you fairly accurate, moderate pow attacks than can deny things up on the charge. You really need boosts or a Damage buff to get them to work though so your second list should be able to wreck armor
Kaya 3 would be an excellently addition to your collection. Like fudley said, she can crank up the damage. His Kaya 3 List without mercy is a really good place for you to start.
I would say: Krueger 1 devo hosf Kaya 3 Wild call.
And get yourself a second Wayfarer. We are so frikkin dependabt on free charges to reliably kill things...
You’ll soon learn primal is not an every turn animus. Especially on warwolves. I cast it very rarely and only on turns I have to commit to kill a large amount of models with the expectation of dealing a crippling blow!
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Post by beastofwar on Oct 30, 2017 17:28:08 GMT
Hey guys I'm new to forums so forgive me.
It's refreshing to see some people with the same problems. I feel incredibly depowered since mark 3. Struggling to beat cryx and trolls atm.
I have found sr17 annoying as I too seem to struggle to win without caster kill. I found that I cannot remove a high armour blocks in time. O come to a wall I cannot defeat unless I use expensive heavy warbeasts to chip a few away to have them killed by cheap infantry.
I have looked into attrition and board control/denial.
Attrition... Our troops die very easily. Tried using morvahna 1 and 2 but I'm bringing them back for them to be squished soon after. Having high def is good but a lot of armies are able to boost their mat or add +mat making our high def useless.
Board control/denial... I find we are amazing at it. However you can only slow something down and find that you only slow the inevitable. Placing forests to block line of sight, cloud effects, push, teleportation ECT. We have the tools but not the power.
I have had cheap infantry crush our living beasts, charging brute thrall combo strike. So I thought I'll invest in the constructs. I find they stay in place due to high armour but don't have the hitting power.
I was suggested maybe denting jacks with infantry before letting the warp wolves finish the job. I found our infantry are only good at killing light infantry along with the rest of the army. Reeves are too expensive for a 2 shot cra, ravagers are too expensive and fragile for heavy jacks,skin walkers are are expensive and die to cheap weapon masters and ranged and the tharn ladies... at best p+s 11 vs 20+ armour on things that heal or get repaired.
I see what our army can do. We can slow things down and deny and decimate light infantry. But struggle seeing the benefits of it in sr17. when you see heavy war beast spam or heavy Jack spam. I falter.
I have seen little evidence of us cracking high armour targets. What have you done to overcome this?
I love this game but feel like I've been screwed. Has any one resolved these issues.
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Post by Fudly on Oct 30, 2017 18:03:32 GMT
Wolds are getting their hitting power buffed and points reduced within a month. Una2 and Kaya3 are our best armor crackers right now (Bradigus will soon get added to that list). This was my anti-armor Una list before I got bored of Una: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0WgM4B5H5H5H5H5H5H5H5l5l5g5ghm5f5fBut generally the math sucks against anything with armor 20. For a stalker to reliably kill something arm 20, it needs a 2 point armor swing and to not pay for a charge. Alternately, you need to dent it with something. Primaled scarsfells are probably the best options for denting a jack enough for a stalker to stop by and clean it up. In any case, against a serious armor skew, you're really just trying to stay in the game long enough to win by assassination or scenario. The math isn't good enough to realistically expect to out-attrition them.
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Post by wolfchild on Oct 30, 2017 19:55:11 GMT
I’m seeing a LOT of lists with multiple duplicates of things. Is that for redundancy/unpredictability or just because not enough of our stuff is worth taking so we take the good stuff over and over again? Having seen lots of batreps on YouTube recently, Loki seems an almost must have; extra ranged threat, more board control, MAT7 ARM19 and still 2pt cheaper than Ghetorix. I don’t get why Gheto’ is pointed so high. It’s tempting for the purpose of proxying b4 buying, to try using: Ghetorix as a second Stalker (Ghetorix only seems better w +1 MAT and STR but costs 2 points more, not worth it if not w Kromac1). Druid Overseer as 2nd Blackclad maybe Razorwing Griffon as 2nd Scarsfell I could proxy an Argus and Kaya1 as Kaya2 w Laris - Proxying feels inherently wrong to me, but on a now tiny budget necessary I guess I need extra stones or something just for cheap units if I go so heavy on beasts for a Call of the Wild Theme.
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