|
|
Post by yourmumrang on Mar 29, 2017 12:04:22 GMT
 Hey guys wanted to start a discussion on Vayl2 in this edition. I miss refuge but can deal. I miss Obliterate and Purification but i can deal. I love an AA with her and a Hellion with Stealth is amazingly funny. Hellmouths are the perfect addition to her. So i wanted people to share lists, tactics and experiences about probably our most complex caster. I will start with a question... how has Oracles changed your lists if at all? |
|
|
|
Post by ComboSmiteNick on Mar 29, 2017 12:19:10 GMT
Oracles is so tempting but damn, giving up Hellmouth is such a high price for her. More than probably any other caster.
|
|
eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209 
|
Post by eauc on Mar 29, 2017 12:56:18 GMT
Problem with theme forces with vayl2, for me : you must forsake typhon and hellmouth.
I can't see myself doing that.
It's almost the exact opposite of the mk2 situation, where it was really hard not to play her in theme.
But some people did anyway, and had fair success.
So I don't doubt that you could run her in theme force in mk3, if you really wanted to.
|
|
|
|
Post by copperflame on Mar 29, 2017 14:49:25 GMT
haha - yea, there is not a theme out there (yet?)that Vayl likes imo.
As stated earlier, giving up Hellmouth hurts. I don't know if she still can carry her weight post theme environment. I haven't tested her against the likes of the Winterguard theme or have clairvoyance enough to foresee if another faction will get a theme as broken as Oracles.
I tend to find that AA+Hellmouth is a set-up that I like a lot with Vayl2. I have yet to try Hellion + Stealth though... and that just sounds annoyingly fun. I tend to use Occulation on Raptors to help clear out priority targets safely.
On a side note, if you do decide to go with Oracles... a person suggested the Seraph as a very strong archnode selection. Flight, Eyeless, Apparition and Flare on its gun....
|
|
princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
|
Post by princeraven on Mar 29, 2017 15:04:28 GMT
Vayl 2 is my answer for Retribution and Cygnar so really I don't want to take a theme force that makes me give up Anyssa and Deathstalkers. Not to mention the Hellmouth, Typhon and Azrael.
|
|
rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
|
Post by rivers on Mar 29, 2017 15:41:10 GMT
Pretty much. Of the themes we currently have the only one I would consider her with is Oracles, and even then that's a bit of a gamble. I do like her with the Archangel and you can take that instead of Typhon and do well, but losing Hellmouth and Deathstalkers is rough. I have two variations on it (one with more magic attacks and one without) but I just haven't felt compelled to try either. Probably partially because I'm way more excited about Kallus2 and Azrael.
|
|
|
|
Post by Korianneder on Mar 29, 2017 18:07:55 GMT
Vayl2 doesn't bring a lot of anti-shooting tech other than Occultation. Is the plan for dropping her into Cygnar and Ret basically: kill the enemy caster no matter where they try to hide?
|
|
|
|
Post by yourmumrang on Mar 29, 2017 18:23:18 GMT
I've always wondered why she is considered good Vs Cygnar for the same reasons
|
|
|
|
Post by snotling on Mar 29, 2017 18:34:13 GMT
She can get rid of upkeeps, has huge threat ranges, and can assasinate haley2 in haleys feat turn.
She can also zap solos and journeymen quite easy.
|
|
rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
|
Post by rivers on Mar 29, 2017 18:47:26 GMT
All those reasons and also to double down on the assassination, Cygnar generally has very very squishy casters, right in her prime "kill you with a bunch of POW12" range. Her upkeep hate does struggle with things like the Stormwall since Chasten has to damage to remove, but she can kill things dead without exposing herself.
|
|
|
|
Post by snotling on Mar 29, 2017 19:21:51 GMT
Yea. She cant reliably take arcane shield from a stormwall. But that why we have the naga xD
|
|
|
|
Post by yourmumrang on Mar 30, 2017 3:19:24 GMT
What lists have people found success with? What does she like to see across the table from her and what does she hate?
|
|
rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
|
Post by rivers on Mar 30, 2017 15:04:17 GMT
Typhon, Hellmouth, Raptors are all things I tend to consider with her first. She's a generalist with a leaning toward early piece trades and assassination - or at least that's how I play her. Generally I like to see electro leaps because I'm not brining squishy single wound infantry that will clump up. Gunlines that can't handle stealth are pretty easy to bait into getting a decent first strike, as in a lot of cases you can meet or exceed their ranges. I like enemy lists that care a lot about DEF buff spells that can be easily chastened away (there's not TOO much that can dodge a boosted to hit Fury 8 shot), letting Typhon go to town after the dispel. Mixed arms lists will be fine for her to play into - these tend to offer juicy living infantry for Raptors to scoot and shoot with no retaliation, and a few hard targets for the battlegroup to shred once you've pulled them out of position or baited the alpha with Admonition.
Strictly speaking, she won't like seeing heavy armor skews, but at the same time a jack spam list is easy pickings from the assassination perspective. I don't like Rahn because he plays her game but way better, and as such it's hard to keep her safe from him with the lists I'd usually run with her. I also feel like even with Typhon sprays and her AoE nuke she can be easily bogged down by too much opposing infantry. Things that can buff themselves without spells are a bad time too. Hard to assassinate casters like Butcher make her sad too.
Typhon I feel is needed as he's the "best" target for Boundless Charge due to his glaring lack of pathfinder and ability to handle both hard targets and swarms of infantry.
Raptors are simply the best target for Occultation and with that on are incredibly self-sufficient as well.
Usually only one Hellmouth. They're the perfect arcing option for her as long as your opponent is killing the tentacles off since you can place the new one exactly where you need to arc from. If you want, they are also good to Occultation if your opponent has a reliable ranged threat to it (Hunters, Widowmakers + Marksman, Deathstalkers, etc).
As for the rest of the list - often a Seraph to double down on alpha strike capabilities. It's also an excellent arc node as well due to its natural mobility. You'll probably want at least one other heavy, and that's down to personal preference. If you want a little more reliability into armor or less reliance on Chasten, a Naga and/or Blackfrost Shard might suit your fancy. I also like Raeks to harass or threaten the assassination even harder (back arc headbutts with a 32" control range is always nice). My current "generic" 75 point list for her is:
Vayl2
-Typhon
-Scythean
-Seraph
-Raek
BFS
Raptors
Hellmouth
Shepherd x2
Forsaken
While I don't think he used it, JVM's recent Adepticon list swaps the BFS/Raek for an Angelius.
As far as variants go, she actually runs the Archangel very well. It's an excellent channeling option; keeps her very safe, and Boundless Charge is good threat extension. I tend to take him instead of Typhon if I take it, as otherwise the list gets too cramped (and they serve the same role essentially - heavy hitter anchoring model). I need more games with it but my current Archangel variant is:
Vayl2
-Succubus
-Archangel
-Angelius
-Seraph
-Raek
BFS
Hellmouth
Shepherd x2
Spell Martyrs x2
Grotesque Assassin
The Martyrs here are for a couple safer options to arc since there's less heavies to cover board space and sometimes you just don't have the range, and the AA can't be everywhere at once (and has to go in melee eventually). I've considered dropping the Succubus and Grotesque for a pair of Deathstalkers due to the lack of Typhon sprays, though often the AA's gun is good enough on the advance at dealing with any screening infantry (if there is any). Seraph even could go if necessary to fit other stuff, since the AA can't be placed and the Angel is usually fast enough with just Boundless Charge on it. Right now though I like the Assassin for preventing healing into Hordes armies in case my dice go cold and a beast fails to kill his intended target as well as general solo hunting.
Other thoughts: people like Bolt Throwers with her since it gives her even more safety/flexibility in arcing with his animus. Bloodseer could work if you want to run a lot of magic or have a second, cheap Slipstream. I've considered her with Oracles of Annihilation but it's hard to drop the Hellmouth and Typhon (mostly the Hellmouth as I feel it's pretty key to her cheating piece trades due to her lack of ARM or DEF buffs).
|
|
Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
|
Post by Whiskie on Mar 31, 2017 1:03:08 GMT
This is what I've been testing lately: Vayl2 - Typhon - Azrael - Seraph Max Raptors 2x Hellmouth 2x Deathstalker Forsaken 2x Shepherd The general idea is that Vayl likes a generally ranged attack focused game plan. Occultation and Admonition really help with allowing ranged models to do work while suffering little retaliation. Slipstream can be used to this end as well by pulling a model back 2" which helps it stay outside of threat ranges. Typhon and Azreal are an excellent duo. When working together they can shoot heavies off the table without all that much trouble - 3x boosted POW14's and 2x boosted POW17's will leave a mark on just about anything. If the target has an armor buff Vayl can attempt to strip it off with Chasten. If it's a model on the tougher end of the spectrum like a Khador jack a boosted Deadly Storm can be enough to tip the balance in the Legion player's favor. The Seraph can help out with its gun as well since both character beasts really appreciate shooting at Flared targets. The Raptors are pretty self-explanatory. They run up a flank protected by Stealth and harass whichever elements of the opponent's army they can. They're excellent at picking off support staff like Choir and can threaten low and medium armored Warbeasts with poisoned shots. When needed they can charge into melee and ding things up pretty badly with their excellent Weapon Master attacks. The pair of Deathstalkers are there simply to help ensure that the list doesn't become overwhelmed by units like Dawnguard Sentinels, Iron Fang Pikemen, Dread Rots and similar. The part of the list I'm least decided on is the support package. So far in testing double Hellmouth feels good but 12 points tied up in units that do little other than contest scenario elements and jam (since good players will rarely allow you a chance to pull in a high value model like a heavy) seems like too much in this era of lists with more than 75 points on the table due to themes. So I'm leaning toward dropping one Hellmouth and the Forsaken and using the points to pick up a Naga, Raek, Bloodseer or Annyssa plus a Gobber Chef and Shepherd. Hellmouth tentacles have great synergy with the Chef since you place tentacles before triggering Comfort Food. Calamari for beasts!  |
|
|
|
Post by Cheesebeard on Mar 31, 2017 23:19:46 GMT
I'll respond in the form of a batrep:
Vayl2 vs Krueger2 on Extraction (?, Recon w/o the zone)
My list:
Oracles theme
Vayl, Consul of Everblight - WB: +28
- Succubus - PC: 4 (0)
- Seraph - PC: 14
- Angelius - PC: 17
- Carnivean - PC: 19
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 11
- Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8
- Nephilim Bloodseer - PC: 8
The Forsaken - PC: 4
The Forsaken - PC: 4
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 6 (0)
Blackfrost Shard - Sevryn, Rhylyss & Vysarr: 9
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight - PC: 6 (0)
Circle:
Themeless
Krueger the Stormlord - WB: +27
- Loki - PC: 19
- Pureblood Warpwolf - PC: 17
- Warpwolf Stalker - PC: 19
- Gorax Rager - PC: 7
- Woldwyrd - PC: 9
- Woldwyrd - PC: 9
Gallows Grove - PC: 2
Gallows Grove - PC: 2
Feralgeist - PC: 2 (We realized this was extra, afterwards, but it had no impact)
Sentry Stone & Mannikins - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
Sentry Stone & Mannikins - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3
Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
We roll off and Krueger2 wins, picking the side with a forest in AD and a trench on his side of mid. There are a few hills scattered around, rubble in mid, and a wall and building that were of no consequence.
I set up with a wide spread, and forget that Nephilim don't natively have pathfinder, making the water right next to my objective a little annoying. The S&H gets Occultation and the Angelius gets Admonition (couldn't remember when you declare these, so I did it at setup). BFS positions to flank the cloud from my objective with the Naga flanking the other side, and the Seraph and Bloodseer set up for early slipstream. It's around here that I'm realizing how it of practice I am with Legion positioning shenanigans, but no time to screw around rethinking everything. Krueger positions his stuff fairly balanced, with the Woldwyrds on the same side as my Angelius (cue foreshadowing). He preps his AD for a forest wall.
Turn 1:
Legion: I have to stay 14" from his AD, or get boosted sprays to the face, and 15" from the AD trees... Fun. I position the S&H centrally to block some spray angles, trample the Carnivean up with SG towards my right flag, and bring the hex hunters to the front line, but out of most sprays. I set up my cloud wall, mostly for practice, and miss one of the shots, but at least it doesn't deviate until the hex hunters. I stick my Angelius with admonition at the corner of the house to get cover vs non-sprays, and slipstream stuff around.
Circle: The Pureblood sprays 10" into my stealth S&H (oops, forgot about it being 10"), but leaves it on one box. Sentries move up and do their forest thing, and two or three of the little wooden Firetruckers get boosted sprays into the hex hunters, killing one. Woldwyrds position defensively near my left flag, and Krueger2 moves up and does his Windwall thing, with other beasts hanging out behind the forests blocking LoS.
Turn 2:
Legion: I decide what the hell, I'm going to try to top of two this druid punk, and see what Vayl2 can do. I upkeep admonition for free, and drop Occultation (note: this was the opposite of the correct thing to do). Apparition my hex hunters for some charges into trees and stones and all the other weird stuff that Circle people are into. I get some charges off on my right side, killing a tree, a wood dude, and a sentry stone with Bayal, who then sprays Krueger2 in the face - Gorax takes 7 - and a Gobber. The Angelius gets a free charge into the other sentry stone, killing it, and now is in the forest wall and has LoS to Krueger2. The Bolt Thrower puts several points of damage into a Woldwyrd, and the Carnivean sprays down a stone and the remaining Gobber and sits on the right flag. S&H scoots over to the left flag and puts up no shooting. Bloodseer runs up to within 5" of Krueger2. Vayl2 gets slipstreamed into position to aim at the Angelius outside of Krueger2's control and feats. Bolt Thrower animus, hits the hard 3, and goes to town. Lands the boosted Icy Grip - nice - and lands three Chastens (one boosted damage), followed by an Icy Cloud POW 13 thing that I don't recall the name of. Krueger2 is left sitting on several boxes, and two transfers. Not great, but it was a good experiment, and I'm not going to die. Occultation on the Seraph, Spiny Growth on herself. Naga gets a cloud from Succubus to hide Vayl, and that's turn.
Circle: Krueger2 goes first, and shoots down the S&H (derp to me for not having occultation on it), Windwalls, and feat catches everything except both forsaken, Seraph, bolt thrower, succubus, and Vayl2. First Woldwyrd goes and two-shots my Angelius (this is why admonition was bad); also, eff these things - seriously. Second one kills a few hex hunters after it gets to my now uncontested left flag. Loki gets in the trench midfield, and pulls Bloodseer in, but has shitty dice and leaves it on 3. Pureblood walks up and sprays the Bloodseer - killing it - and two hex hunters. Stalker kills Bayal and the last hex Hunter, and sprints back to the cloud around his objective. Turn, and one point.
Turn 3:
Legion: Well, I'm down an Angelius and a Bloodseer and all my hex hunters, and got feated on most of my army - so it goes. I think I can still kill Krueger2, with a little luck, though, and attrition isn't looking great so it seems the best plan. Apparition BFS (my only remaining unit) and the Seraph. Upkeep Icy Grip on Krueger and drop Occultation. First is the Bolt Thrower who's still in range of Krueger2, with snipe, and he gets shot in the face by a Woldwyrd for casting a spell... Right, those things. I shoot Krueger2 and get a boosted crit! And then Loki shield guards it. Right²... Loki is a shield guard... Well at least he's on his ass, now. Seraph is about half an inch outside of walking threat of Krueger2, but I need to also slipstream the kissy BFS elf, so I slipstream the elf, giving up my d3 shots... And get a massive shot in the face by that dogganmed Woldwyrd again. Firetruck those things, seriously. BFS crawls upfield under Krueger's feat, and - I remember the damned wyrds this time! - putting up stealth before they start casting spells. However, apparently the effing shot happens before the spell, somehow?? But the one casting was the guy out of range - thank the blight. Kiss lands, and the second BFS gets a POW 14 crit stationary on Krueger2! Invisible victory dance ensues. Carnivean puts up Spiny and assaults Krueger2, cranking the damage a bit, and the poor Gorax is really getting its ass kicked back there with transfers. Vayl2 walks around the objective/cloud, Oraculi-s(?) the Carnivean in the arse, and proceeds to put a Krueger-pop in the dirt.
Victory to the Legion!
Take-aways:
Vayl2 still has game, but is a little pillow-fisted this edition.
The oracles theme is great, and I think people are focusing to hard on the 4th free solo, at the expense of greater list versatility.
Those Woldwyrds are a Firetrucking terror - they're probably too good.
Seriously.
Sentry stones threat for days.
Loki is better than I had realized.
Pureblood sprays are pretty damned potent.
I need a lot of reps with a list like this to not trip over my own feet, but I am really enjoying how it came together.
|
|
