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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 26, 2017 20:27:01 GMT
In my experience, these big infantry bricks actually need the full KSB more, because there are more models to cover and even if an 8-9 inch aura is enough you can't always get the stone to the right spot for that.
I do like Warders with Madrak but note that it's often better to put them in front, especially when the Champs can use Tactician to charge right through them. If the opponent is likely to get the alpha with melee attacks that the Champs are not likely to survive, then it's better to put the Warders in front. Even with Grissel 2, I do this because Warders have Brutal Charge and this helps them use that. On the feat turn, they can charge then reposition back into b2b and jamming.
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Post by Bomma on Oct 26, 2017 21:10:23 GMT
The biggest trouble I've found is moving all the medium bases where I want them.. take up some serious board presence.
Trying to fit it all somewhere close to the stone and or to keep it relevant is hard work, like you have a small placement going game going that your opponent isn't even aware of lol.
Here's a few things I'm pondering -
Which beast package is the best for M1 ? I've been using Mauler/Earthborn for 29 pts but they don't really do anything for him or him for them.. fury 5 sucks balls in reaving and also casting spells/animi.
Trying to fit everything in the 12" control area is tough.. anything that is outside is weak. This is usually coupled with the stone aura as well.
Double champs the way to go?
How much support bloat is to much?
B.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Oct 26, 2017 21:59:07 GMT
I would go with a single Gargantuan for his battlegroup. - easy to manage fury - optimize use of Jackhammer - easy to get within the stone aura with the huge base - fairly independent most of the time
2 max champs every time imo. - Kriel warriors are bad - Fennblades are a good screen but 2 units require a Madrak2 list to do enough work - Long Riders I like as well, but more than 1 unit is too much. They escape the aura too easily, and only excel once they initially engage. After the charge they drop in value.
Champs beat all 3 other units. Can survive the way in (Sanguine bond + feat), resilient with def 16 melee (the other units 'only' have 14), and can do damage even when not charging.
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Post by gobber on Oct 26, 2017 22:05:47 GMT
There are definitely some interesting storm in the north options for him. Pretty sure I don't want madrak using rage often. On the other hand, there's $250 of stuff to buy Madrak1: -Brawler -Brawler -Runebearer (free) Champ hero (free) Champs+ Skaldi (free) Max KSB+NKE 2x Fire eaters 2x Northkin Raiders
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Oct 26, 2017 22:26:46 GMT
gobber: with your list I would go for Madrak2 80% of the time and Madrak3 the ramaining 20% What does Madrak1 do for that list, or the other way around? Madrak3 is better at delivering the 20 Raiders, but Madrak2 makes them hit hard enough and gives the Brawler duo a nice surf during feat. What is your thought process?
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Post by gobber on Oct 26, 2017 22:42:02 GMT
gobber : with your list I would go for Madrak2 80% of the time and Madrak3 the ramaining 20% What does Madrak1 do for that list, or the other way around? Madrak3 is better at delivering the 20 Raiders, but Madrak2 makes them hit hard enough and gives the Brawler duo a nice surf during feat. What is your thought process? "I'd be perfectly happy running this list under any madrak" definitely crossed my mind. The main reason for Maddy1 is making those raiders def15 steadytough every turn (probably better delivery than maddy3). Guided hand is also a neat way to set them up for quick work.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 27, 2017 13:29:13 GMT
I would go with a single Gargantuan for his battlegroup. - easy to manage fury - optimize use of Jackhammer - easy to get within the stone aura with the huge base - fairly independent most of the time ... I do not agree at all with this. Oh, a gargantuan is totally fine but not as the only warbeast. There are two good reasons for this: 1) Having only one beast means the gargantuan can only force to 4 unless you plan on camping 0. With Jack hammer you could in theory do lots and lots of damage anyway, but Madrak is incredibly fury starved already, so jackhammer will probably only be used for some all in assassination plays. 2) Even Ground is the main spell for Madrak. You really want to blood boon it, since it costs a lot of fury. To reliably use blood boon, you want Far Strike in the list, and that requires a bomber or impaler. That way you can spend 1 to far strike and 1 to boost hit at something rather than spending 3 on Even Ground. This saves you one fury, and you want all the fury you can get. You also have a decent chance of killing 2 dudes per turn with Madraks axe, and such things add up. Since i want to get 3 free things in my BoH/SotN list i will not use a gargantuan, since hat means that you would either have to use the single gargantuan battle group, or give up far strike and take something like a pyre troll as your second beast. My current draft for Madrak 1 has the sort of unusual beast set up of Bouncer, Bouncer, Impaler. I did NOT expect to play such a battle group in MK3
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Oct 27, 2017 14:32:55 GMT
Then consider this Trollock: 1) I think camping 0 with Madrak1 will be quite easy and safe most of the time. You could hide behind the Gargantuan to prevent getting charged. If you are afraid of guns or have a lot in your meta, you can bring Warders (in BoH). His statline is pretty good - 16/19 with no knockdown and can ignore 1 hit pr. game. Something like a boosted Stormwall shot. That alone I think is deterrent enough for most people to not go for an assassination. And if not, you camp 1 so you can transfer to the Garg with 4 fury on it 2) Why blood boon Even Ground? With Moses it costs 2 fury anyway + you can stay safer (in reference to first point). And sometimes you might not be able to blood boon. Without, you don't get tempted to go too far up the board, or steer the DEF bubble too far in the wrong direction due to enemy model placement. I think of this more as lategame or a secondary ability he has.
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Madrak 1
Oct 27, 2017 14:55:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 27, 2017 14:55:50 GMT
Trollock, why did you choose that battlegroup for Madrak1?
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Madrak 1
Oct 27, 2017 16:35:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by mazog on Oct 27, 2017 16:35:29 GMT
I'll speculate on why he chose that group. Shield guards with reach, and the cheapest source of far shot in faction. Champs with charge of the Trolls are a thing to behold!
EDIT: and it fits his beast points exactly.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 27, 2017 19:47:26 GMT
I'll speculate on why he chose that group. Shield guards with reach, and the cheapest source of far shot in faction. Champs with charge of the Trolls are a thing to behold! EDIT: and it fits his beast points exactly. Yeah, thats about the whole of it. Also, at DEF 14 ARM 21, the Bouncers are incredibly annoying to deal with. They will be trying to protect the champions pre feat.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 27, 2017 19:52:51 GMT
Then consider this Trollock: 1) I think camping 0 with Madrak1 will be quite easy and safe most of the time. You could hide behind the Gargantuan to prevent getting charged. If you are afraid of guns or have a lot in your meta, you can bring Warders (in BoH). His statline is pretty good - 16/19 with no knockdown and can ignore 1 hit pr. game. Something like a boosted Stormwall shot. That alone I think is deterrent enough for most people to not go for an assassination. And if not, you camp 1 so you can transfer to the Garg with 4 fury on it 2) Why blood boon Even Ground? With Moses it costs 2 fury anyway + you can stay safer (in reference to first point). And sometimes you might not be able to blood boon. Without, you don't get tempted to go too far up the board, or steer the DEF bubble too far in the wrong direction due to enemy model placement. I think of this more as lategame or a secondary ability he has. Well, as i said. If you Blood Boon the Even Ground, you save 1 fury. That can be put in to the stone or what ever you need that particular round. Using the runebearer to make it (or far strike for that matter) cheaper is sub optimal, since that means he is not casting guided hand that round. Sure it will not be needed every turn, but it feels like such a waste... Also, you miss out on both the primary shot AND ricochet. That is 1-2 models per turn, potentially valuable models that you are killing. Most troll lists plan on playing a long game, so that could be like 10 models more you have to fight by round 7. That is significant... But, i have yet to try it out. maybe blood boon is a trap and you should just stay back and hide all game.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Oct 27, 2017 21:52:35 GMT
I played him forward and the only time's I got assassinated were where I overcommitted to destroying the Witch's house in the Longest Night event. One of them included a combination of Tiberion slamming me to make a landing zone for a speed 9 (freaking field marshal +2 speed in skorne...) Archidon, I don't remember the other, and there was a notable failed assassination where Butcher3 used Vengeance and Energizer to get in a position where he just had to kill one lone Champ and a Fennblade to charge Madrak. The Feenblade dropped fast, but even before he'd blown his whole stack, twice (thanks to his feat) it was clear that I was going to survive. He only needed 7s to hit, but got maybe three of those out of all those attacks. Dice, man. Dice. In retrospect I would be a lot more cautious about Butcher3, I haven't played against him much before outside of Grissel2, and she just shouts at him and he lies down and vengeance stopped being a thing...
I seem to have gotten off track. I'd say play forward and use Blood Boon as much as you can until you get a feel for when you should hide. I don't think Madrak1 needs to hide much, though. I mean, I survived being charged by Tibbers, including a crit slam into my own dude and a couple followup swings. I haven't seen many Troll warlocks that can Facetank Tibbers.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Oct 27, 2017 21:54:06 GMT
I'll speculate on why he chose that group. Shield guards with reach, and the cheapest source of far shot in faction. Champs with charge of the Trolls are a thing to behold! EDIT: and it fits his beast points exactly. Yeah, thats about the whole of it. Also, at DEF 14 ARM 21, the Bouncers are incredibly annoying to deal with. They will be trying to protect the champions pre feat. I started to think about the 14/21 Bouncers after the edit, but figured more speculation was silly. I may try this instead of the Bomber/Axer battlegroup that I had, as it seems better at everything except hurting people, but it is _way_ better at supporting the hurting of people.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 28, 2017 6:27:22 GMT
Yeah, thats about the whole of it. Also, at DEF 14 ARM 21, the Bouncers are incredibly annoying to deal with. They will be trying to protect the champions pre feat. I started to think about the 14/21 Bouncers after the edit, but figured more speculation was silly. I may try this instead of the Bomber/Axer battlegroup that I had, as it seems better at everything except hurting people, but it is _way_ better at supporting the hurting of people. Bomber/axer is a superb battle group too, but i went more for hoping that i could trigger charge of the trolls
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