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Post by newangel on Oct 14, 2017 13:55:48 GMT
So I got a few games into my friends PoM today. Not an ideal match-up since they typically run a lot of AOE's and templates, but hey this was a practice game and my list needed stress testing. I had been working on a list to cover armour skew builds in my pairing (eKrueger in Bones is my main list) though I had really only done the theory with few actual games (I had been running Tanith with some success before Themes became a thing but hadn't picked her up in a while so I was a little rusty).
So the list I put together was:
Tanith (Wild Hunt)
-Warpwolf Stalker
-Loki
-Gorax
-Wild Argus
Max Reeves with UA
Max Wolves of Orboros with UA
Shifting Stones
Swamp Gobbers
Wolf Lord Morraig
Reeve Hunter (free)
Reeve Hunter (free)
War Wolf
War Wolf
War Wolf
And my opponent dropped (to the best of my knowledge)
Harbinger
-Devout
-Reckoner
VoJ
Max Bastions
Max Bastions
KE with UA
Rhoven and Co.
Bastion Seneschal
Rhupert
Wrack
Mechanik
So a real meat mountain. Not quite the armour skew, but it would take a serious amount of attacks since nothing really dies and whatever you fail to kill gets healed a ridiculous amount the next turn. Since there are a few more reps to come I'll make this brief. Not quite as bad as I thought initially. My opponent forgot to Feat throughout the entire game. I was able to whittle down a unit of Bastions with Affliction applied on my Feat turn, but without an arc node I could't risk it after that. Overall in turn 4 attrition started to swing my way, but I had given up too much scenario. My opponent won on CP's.
Game 2 I tweaked my list and traded out my Argus for a 2nd set of Shifting Stones and 2 Gallows Groves. This time my opponent dropped a Reznik2 list he had been itching to try out. Pretty fast game. Top of 2 I charged Reznik who was camping 1 with a Reeve Hunter (with Scything Touch). This and 2 War Wolf charges later Reznik was on 3 Health with his Focus camp gone. Loki tried to shoot but got Shield Guarded off. A reeve CRA ended the game.
We then reset (Game 3) and this time my opponent won the roll for first. Same list for me and him:
Reznik2
-Devout
-Reckoner
-Reckoner
Min Choir
Max Idrians with UA
Max Cleansers with UA
Sunburst Crew
Sunburst Crew
Kell Bailoch
Wrack
Deliverer Arms Master
This list absolutely terrified me with the sheer amount of infantry removal on the table. My list attritioned better than I thought it would, but his sprays and AOE's took their toll and I ended up slowly losing the attrition as I was forced to come into range to stop his CP lead. Almost succeeded in a last ditch attempt to assassinate but a Devout blocking Loki's charge lane didn't die when it was supposed to.
Game 4 my opponent dropped Harbinger again and I stuck it out with Tanith. I think I made fewer errors but my opponent had also been learning from his. He gave up on 1 side when my flanking unit came on (they charged a whole single Bastion). Due to how many models had died at that point they were going to swing the attrition on that side of the board in my favour. The game ended in a kind of stalemate as he had plans and we had run pretty late. He probably had an assassination run on Tanith with a Reckoner while I was camping 2, but needing 1 Focus to shake Shadow Bind and a 2nd for the charge it may not have been enough. CP's were tied when it ended. A real nail biter of a game.
Overall impressions were good. I think everyone knows the Reeve trick with Affliction, but wow...the damage output from the Reeve Hunters and War Wolves with Scything touch was insane. It really felt like they took the damage output just over the edge to ensure Bastions died when I wanted them to. Using Hunters to add an additional 2 shots from 12" away and then contributing with Weapon Master charges the turn after is not insignificant. This list had the weight of attacks to chew through wound sharing, Martyrdom and Bonds of Faith. I'm pretty sure that's about as tough as it gets without utilizing Grievous Wounds. Against lists with few attacks I feel this list would simply out attrition pretty heavily (my opponent and myself both noted that everything in the list hits a little harder than we expected it to) but blasts and AOE's do hurt. Scenario felt a little weak as although you can flood zones with ambushing models there isn't much in the list that isn't squishy, though Admonition does help keep key pieces alive in most match-ups - just not vs Harbinger. That said Tanith's toolkit really fits the theme and gives it what it wants - increased accuracy and extra damage output. Gotta say I'm super excited to put it on the table again into something else.
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daveg
Light Addition
Posts: 67 
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Post by daveg on Oct 16, 2017 20:09:13 GMT
Do you find that Morraig does enough? I've recently been stripping him from my lists because he is so swingy with his one/(sometimes)two situational WM attacks. I haven't had a chance to test yet though since I've been on a try new casters and now prep mode.
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Post by newangel on Oct 17, 2017 14:09:15 GMT
I have mostly used Morraig for harassing flanks. He can perhaps land a telling blow on something I failed to finish off but typically yes, he personally doesn't get a whole lot of work done in a game. However I don't think I could consider dropping him for a couple of reasons.
1. He's one of the more durable pieces in the list. Your opponent will have to commit something heftier than a couple of infantry to remove him and if he's hanging around the edges then whatever does deal with him is getting hit by my flanking unit. In one of my games my opponent simply abandoned a zone because he didn't want to have to commit the resources knowing they would in turn be removed.
2. He's a great sic 'em trigger. Wolves of Orboros can be worked around. Reeves should never be in melee. Reeve Hunters aren't durable enough to get there usually. But Morraig...apply Scything Touch to him and not only can he be potentially hitting as a P+S 15 weaponmaster, but ALL the War Wolves then come in at P+S 15 also. Sure you can trigger Sic'em at range but then there's usually no Scything Touch and 1 less Gang Fighter triggered which can be a big difference.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 18, 2017 14:00:28 GMT
If you want scything touch for a sic-em, just stick it on the war wolf and go to town.
Makes it easy to get great value out of a reeves / reeve hunter proccing sic 'em.
-und_ed
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Post by newangel on Oct 19, 2017 12:22:20 GMT
Sure the sic 'em works well with Scything Touch, but you do lose out on 2 pts of damage by not triggering Gang Fighter for the first War Wolf. Also specifically for the PoM match-up most turns your Reeves won't be able to target the Warjacks at range (also applies to a few other Warlocks/Warcasters with specific spells if looking for an assassination) so you are looking for a charge. This is really where Morraig's mobility provides some serious utility. He's no Pureblood (and the thought had occurred to me to find the points for one - hard choice to make since it's the Stalker who gets dropped - maybe if the Mist Speaker makes it through CID intact he'll be a better option) but he has a place.
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Post by kuririnad on Oct 19, 2017 20:02:32 GMT
If you do find room for a pureblood, you can always wraithbane the leader and cra protectorate warjacks through passage. 2 pow19s that are basically auto hitting plus the sic Em's should put a serious hurt on everything that doesn't have a shield plus the lights that do.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 19, 2017 20:13:19 GMT
If you do find room for a pureblood, you can always wraithbane the leader and cra protectorate warjacks through passage. 2 pow19s that are basically auto hitting plus the sic Em's should put a serious hurt on everything that doesn't have a shield plus the lights that do. Yeah Purebloods are amazing in wild hunt. Tracker plus ghostly means you can assault spray through forests and blessed combined with scything touch is pretty good at cracking hard targets! |
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Post by zarduhasslefrau on Oct 31, 2017 5:39:41 GMT
I just tried Tanith in a Wild hunt list with 2x Max Reeves. I got sick of rolling dice by mid-game. Can really see where rolling 1D6 makes life easier and faster when rolling mass die than 2D6 which is superior with the bell curve.
I had to roll to hit 44 times!!!!
My list:
Circle Orboros - Tanith Reeves army
Theme: The Wild Hunt
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Stockpile - Steamroller Objective
Tanith the Feral Song - WB: +31
- Loki - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19)
- Gnarlhorn Satyr - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Argus Moonhound - PC: 6
- Argus Moonhound - PC: 6
Gallows Grove - PC: 2
Gallows Grove - PC: 2
Reeve Hunter - PC: 4
Reeves of Orboros - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16
- Reeve of Orboros Chieftain & Standard - Chieftain & Standard: 0
Reeves of Orboros - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16
- Reeve of Orboros Chieftain & Standard - Chieftain & Standard: 0
Death Wolves - Skoll, Tala & Caleb: 9
Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3
- Stone Keeper - PC: 2
Wolves of Orboros - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
THEME: The Wild Hunt
In hind sight, I should remove the Reeve Hunter for Lanyssa.
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Post by newangel on Nov 1, 2017 12:01:58 GMT
So it's been a while since I wrote anything, but I did some additional testing last weekend into some Grymkin (Heretic) and PoM (Kreoss3). Having never played into Grymkin before I found a few issues into recurring dude-spam and basically went for a bottom of 2 assassination. Loki missed the boosted 6 and we pretty much called it there as the whole turn had been setting up for the Loki drag. Into Kreoss3 there were a few placement errors (alongside some atrocious dice at key moments - missing free strikes on DEF 12 cavalry with a MAT 10 Warpwolf, triple 1's on a charge with Loki into a DEF 12 Warjack, snake eyes into the only contesting cavalry in a zone with Morraig...the list goes on) that meant I was going to lose on scenario so had to go for an assassination. The poor dice continued (at least another 2 sets of snake eyes in there) and I didn't even get close to succeeding.
Despite this I'll be using a variation of the original at a local steamroller this Saturday (alongside eKrueger in Bones). The list I plan to run is:
Tanith (Wild Hunt)
-Loki
-Pureblood
-Gorax
Reeve Hunter
Reeve Hunter
War Wolf
War Wolf
Gallows Grove (would be a third Wolf if I owned it)
Gallows Grove
Morraig
Full Reeves with CA
Full Wolves with CA
Death Wolves
Shifting Stones
Basically hoping that the inclusion of an additional melee unit will provide some additional punch late game (they certainly bring more than the Moonhound I was testing before). The theory is that they add to the "picking apart" style of the list. They also provide additional infantry mulching capabilities (which Tanith further enhances) and are additional Sic 'em triggers. Finally, if they get loaded with corpses they become very valid assassins late game. So far I have only used them once when playing into Farrow and they killed far more infantry than they had any right to with not a single successful tough roll in sight. Hoping this translates well into the current list and they contribute just as much.
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Post by Fudly on Nov 1, 2017 16:44:16 GMT
It's weird to me that you're trying to cover armor skews with a list that maxes out at p+s 16 on melee attacks before buffs.
Are you trying to cover armor skews or heavy infantry?
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Post by newangel on Nov 2, 2017 11:52:35 GMT
I'm hoping it will be able to deal with both. Heavy infantry isn't something my local meta usually has a lot of, but we do have a fair amount of Jack spam. My own personal experience with Tanith is that she plinks for damage and out-attritions armour spam that way with heavies applying the finishing touches (even a lowly Pureblood can get to P+S20 which is very respectable). They simply can't trade evenly enough into masses of dudes that when individually killed don't really impact the list's own killing ability. This is actually something I'd like to throw out there for discussions sake:
-Ranged threat: Reeves can plink a heavy to close to death with just gunshots alone. Follow up with other models or on the following turn have the capability to finish the job. Reeve Hunters can also add in their shots for additional damage. Against something that can't be targeted for some reason a giant Blessed CRA will also apply the hurt.
-Melee damage: Reeve Hunters are weapon masters, Morraig is potentially a weapon master. Wolves of Orboros have a turn of being weapon masters. While the power is individually a little low, once you throw in Scything Touch the damage output becomes far more respectable ranging from Power 11-15 weapon masters. Even the lowly 2 point War Wolf can get a 4pt damage swing to make him hit at MAT 8 (and boosted) at P+S 15. The Death Wolves also gain a lot from Scything touch and can hit very high P+S. With corpse tokens they become absolute monsters. As I mentioned above, while you aren't quite destroying the world with this list it is a constant stream of damage that will slowly out attrition a list that only has a few attacks and resources to spread each turn.
-Control elements: Mostly all about Rift, Loki's gun and Tanith's gun. Against a Jack heavy list that lacks Pathfinder you will find Rift amazing to control the flow of the battle. It can also mean not losing on scenario since a lot of the models are fairly squishy and it can be spammed a little bit more on Feat turn to keep more of your own models alive. Loki's gun speaks for itself since you can basically get a free trade, especially so with Admonition up. Tanith's gun is extremely versatile and I'd put it up there as one of the strongest in the game. While the simplest use is to keep models in place (along with preventing additional movement shenanigans such as Dodge) you can do so much more with it. Use it to block charge lanes of models behind, prevent models moving to zones or simply for an additional DEF debuff. Simply put, there's a whole lot of board control.
-Assassination: Something that can be engineered reasonably easily(and years of Krueger 2 practice has tuned that for me). Sic'em charges are the big one but you can also engineer charges from other models when you have a list with this many bodies and the number of buffs and debuffs available. Finding safe places to hide isn't easy.
And a special mention goes to Scything Touch...being able to impact as many models as you can get in your melee range is phenomenal. While this list lacks a bit for 2" melee it does have a heck of a lot of mobility to apply it to what would ordinarily be hard to reach places.
Phew...Hope this helps understand where I'm coming from with the list. As mentioned my personal experience is that it does work, but it IS a very different playstyle compared to many other Circle lists. Try Tanith in the Wild Hunt on the table (if you haven't already) and see if it works for you.
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daveg
Light Addition
Posts: 67
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Post by daveg on Nov 2, 2017 15:29:25 GMT
Interesting. I've been playing in a journeyman league with Tanith and I've been running Wild Hunt with Grayle for a little while. Your breakdown is the amalgamation of my experiences.
I'm trying Tanith in Tharn theme and have found the Wolf Riders do a lot of delivering Scything touch for me. We're at low points still, maybe more models on the field restrict their mobility too much.
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Post by newangel on Nov 6, 2017 13:38:11 GMT
So the tournament is over. We had 10 players show up with a turn out of 3 Circle, 1 POM, 1 Cygnar, 2 Khador, 2 Ret and ...someone else that I must be missing (maybe a third Khador, a second Cygnar player or a 4th Circle player).
Round 1 I'm paired into Khador. His choice is Vlad1 or B3 Jack spam. Honestly I was more scared of the Vlad list but knowing the guy I was fairly certain he would drop B3 and I really wanted to test out Tanith so I dropped her. He chose Butcher (phew). My opponent won the roll off and took first turn so I picked the side with the slightly more advantageous terrain (though for some reason this tournament forests anywhere near the center were toxic so were all placed in irrelevant locations). First turn running happened for both of us then my opponent had a brain fart. He put Butcher within walk and shoot distance of Loki with only one of his own wolves in the way and camping 2 Focus. My Pureblood got Primal and Scything Touch, walked up and threw the dog into Butcher killing the Argus and KD'ing my prey. Loki got Primal then dragged Butcher into melee (within 1" of the the Pureblood also) and took him out in 2 additional hits. GG
Round 2 I found myself running into my local practice partner running High Reclaimer and Kreoss3. I know he's dropping Kreoss, he knows I'm dropping eKrueger and we both know that dice aside whoever wins first turn gets a huge advantage. I win the roll...Even though this was my favorite game of the day there is no Tanith here so I'll be brief. eKrueger wins by assassination after taking a solid attrition and CP lead. Could have lost on clock since I had 1 minute to his 10 but a CP lead was pretty much assured even with such a brief amount of time remaining.
Round 3 I get put into another Circle player (all of which I wanted to avoid). Doesn't matter what I throw down, they all have Baldur2. I put out Tanith just to see what will happen and to top it off I lose the roll to go first. I pretty much get tabled but not before scoring 4 CP's and gaining 22 KP's. This was about as 1 sided as any game could go. Tanith has great upkeeps but can't ever use them and she can't deliver her infantry into that amount of guns and sprays.
And that brings me to the end of my current testing with Tanith. This tournament helped to isolate a couple of issues for me:
I need something to cover Circle, Cygnar and Khador under Vlad1 (all of which are pretty prevalent in our meta). Despite how much I have enjoyed using her I feel she doesn't cover a wide enough range of match-ups to be pair worthy (in my meta, your own experience may vary). While Tanith has some excellent match-ups she also has some glaring weaknesses which simply aren't able to be covered. It really makes using her in a pairing a difficult choice as your other list needs to cover a lot of slack (and in my case, in my meta it can lead to unfavourable list chicken).
And with that I'm moving onto testing out Secret Masters next week!
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raz
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by raz on Nov 6, 2017 14:42:49 GMT
Thank you for your game reports.
I'm heading to a tournament next week-end with Tanith... in Call of the Wild (skornergy!).
Circle Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Call of the Wild
(Tanith 1) Tanith the Feral Song [+31]
- Feral Warpwolf [18]
- Loki [19]
- Pureblood Warpwolf [17]
- Pureblood Warpwolf [17]
- Warpwolf Stalker [19]
- Druid Wilder [0(4)]
Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)]
Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)]
Ogrun Bokur [5]
Shifting Stones [3]
- Stone Keeper [2]
Shifting Stones [3]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
She suffers from the lack of synergy (some would say logic) with the theme bonus that is canceled on her feat turn, but she has some cool strick up her sleeves. Loki with perma-dodge, a Pureblood with admonition backed by a scything touch Stalker is really threatening. I could swap the Stone keeper and a pureblood for a second Stalker, but I won't have time to paint him sadly.
I did some training games against Minions and Khador and had some satisfying results even though the order of activation is quite delicate on feat turn.
Can't wait to read your reports with Secret Masters !
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