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Post by fauste on Oct 11, 2017 14:20:22 GMT
As a casual player, who mostly plays with a small group of friends, I'm looking to improve the way I build my lists. I was wondering, when building a list, are there any hard rules or general guidelines/principles you follow? Do you try to maintain a certain number of solos or have a set ratio of infantry to beasts? Are there certain tools you make a point of always bringing? (For example: I've certainly lost a few games against a regular cryx opponent by not having enough magical weapons).
Any tips or example lists would be greatly appreciated!
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Post by jisidro on Oct 11, 2017 14:59:00 GMT
The fury system dictates that you probably have to take more than your WB points in your battlegroup and the because of how beasts behave you can never let your BG operate without warlock intervention... But apart from this you see lists of every shape and shade.
Due to SR2017 you should try to have Warbeasts/Units and solos available for scoring. Sometimes this will mean a small decision in list build but most of the time it comes down to the scenario you are playing. Perhaps that support solo is on flag duty this battle instead of doing his usual trick or that unit is playing cagey to try and make it to the late game where it'll score...
What lists/themes are you trying to build?
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Post by fauste on Oct 11, 2017 15:31:35 GMT
I typically play a lot of wild hunt Grayle and Tanith, but I just got a Woldwrath and I want to try and play it with Morvahna1. Kinda at a loss with how to fit pieces in to play my friends Cryx this upcoming weekend. With Grayle and Tanith there are clear synergies and elements I like to plug in, and I find I generally run infantry heavy. I've never run Morvanha before, but I'm thinking I still want lots of my wolfsworn on the table. However, I'm a little worried I might not be packing enough of a punch with either list ideas. I only have wolfsworn, so Tharn are out, unfortunately.
Circle Orboros - Morvahna1 Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army Morvahna the Autumnblade - WB: +28 - Druid Wilder - PC: 4 - Woldwrath - PC: 37 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Pureblood Warpwolf - PC: 17 War Wolf - PC: 2 Reeves of Orboros - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Reeve of Orboros Chieftain & Standard: 4 Wolves of Orboros - Leader & 9 Grunts: 11 - Wolves of Orboros Chieftain & Standard: 4 Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3 Sentry Stone & Mannikins - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
The other idea was to try and fit Skinwalkers in, because the look cool and restoration on them might be nice.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 11, 2017 15:42:17 GMT
I think you should try to go in theme... that costs you the Sentry Stones... How about this: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0q4u4Mcn4S5s5f5ocp4U4WCircle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Wild Hunt (Morvahna 1) Morvahna the Autumnblade [+28] - Pureblood Warpwolf [17] - Woldwrath [37] Reeves of Orboros (max) [16] - Reeve of Orboros Chieftain & Standard [0(4)] Shifting Stones [3] Warpborn Skinwalkers (max) [15] - Warpborn Skinwalker Alpha [0(4)] Wolves of Orboros (max) [11] - Wolves of Orboros Chieftain & Standard [4] You have no Solos which is a pain but you can sub the Skinwalkers that are very sub-par and put in a light beast and war wolves perhaps?
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Post by fauste on Oct 12, 2017 2:34:55 GMT
Considering a min unit of stalkers to get some war wolves in as solos. Do people generally run solo-less lists? Feels weird to not have any.
Theme: The Wild Hunt 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Morvahna the Autumnblade - WB: +28 - Woldwrath - PC: 37 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Pureblood Warpwolf - PC: 17
War Wolf - PC: 2 War Wolf - PC: 2 War Wolf - PC: 2
Reeves of Orboros - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Reeve of Orboros Chieftain & Standard: 4 Wolves of Orboros - Leader & 9 Grunts: 11 - Wolves of Orboros Chieftain & Standard: 0 Warpborn Skinwalkers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 9 - Warpborn Skinwalker Alpha - PC: 0 Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3
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Post by Nahualli on Oct 12, 2017 14:28:55 GMT
If you want to have fun with that last list, and don't mind using CID versions of models, try the Bog Trog Mist Speaker and Lynus & Edrea. This will remove the need for the Pureblood if you included him just for the animus, and both can create a super CRA with eyeless sight that chooses column for damage. It's just a cute combination, won't dominate games, but as I said, is fun to do. I agree with the inclusion of Skinwalkers to have a great jamming unit with ARM 20. Instead of the wolves I have a version that uses Wolf Lord Morraig. If you are looking only for good scoring solos, that is better than 3 squishy solos. I have not done the math of attacking with him using flanking vs having 3 wolves charging at the same enemy model, but on SR2017 I am leaning more towards durable solos that can survive and score points.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 12, 2017 14:56:26 GMT
If you want to have fun with that last list, and don't mind using CID versions of models, try the Bog Trog Mist Speaker and Lynus & Edrea. This will remove the need for the Pureblood if you included him just for the animus, and both can create a super CRA with eyeless sight that chooses column for damage. It's just a cute combination, won't dominate games, but as I said, is fun to do. I agree with the inclusion of Skinwalkers to have a great jamming unit with ARM 20. Instead of the wolves I have a version that uses Wolf Lord Morraig. If you are looking only for good scoring solos, that is better than 3 squishy solos. I have not done the math of attacking with him using flanking vs having 3 wolves charging at the same enemy model, but on SR2017 I am leaning more towards durable solos that can survive and score points. I actually take the pureblood for blessed more than I do for Magic weapons haha. Tends to happen when you play wolds all the time As far as list building guidlines: 1: make sure you have a fury or 2 over your warlocks fury available from your selected beasts. -eg: Mohsar is fury 8 so he wants a bg that can generate at least 9-10 Fury so he takes 2 warpwolves and a woldwyrd! 2: Make sure you have a goal for the list -Do you want to focus on assasiantion? Attrition? Or Scenario? I tend to pick 2 of those as my lists focus but always make sure I can play for all 3 if necessary. 3: Are you Playing in theme? --a)If no: Believe it or not circle is one of the few factions that can actually play pretty well outside of theme. My favorite list with wurmwood is outside of theme because I can take megalith AND a pureblood in my bg and blessed is a big part of my assassination game plan for that list and megalith is a really amazing heavy. (If only wurmy was allowed in secret masters....) Also Nahualli has an awesome out of theme Mohsar list! --b)If yes: Make sure you know whats allowed in the theme and know how the benefits interact with the allowed models. EG: Wild hunt has ambushing wolves and beasts that can see through forests when they charge. I tend to make my wild hunt lists focussing on assassination and keep scenario on the table as much as possible. Attrition is really hard in wild hunt due to the models allowed so it can be difficult to build for it without a very specific caster like Morv 1 or grayle. 4: Playtest, Playtest, Playtest -Seriously I only found out what worked by playing the game. I used to think Purebloods were bad...then I actually put them on the table Circle is one of those factions that is really hard to figure out without lots of table time. I still have not fully gotten hold of Wurmwood and I have been playing him for a few months now. 5: Most importantly play what you like. -I started Mk3 by playing Mohsar a lot. People would tell me he was garbage, or ask me why I played him instead of power casters like 2Una and Wurmwood pre nerf but I would just say, because I love hm, the fluff, the rules it all just is so fun and cool to me. Sure he has flaws, but some of the most fun I had in mk3 has been working with Mohsar and figuring out what he does best.
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Post by Nahualli on Oct 12, 2017 15:54:46 GMT
Another tip that will save you time being frustrated: Don't build lists to attempt to fight on equal terms with big hitting armies, like heavy jacks spam. One of the best tactics in this army is to pick parts of the opponent army one by one, never going full front except for jamming. Circle is not meant to look for piece trades, since our beasts are costly. That means that our best tactics involves flanking attacks with fast units, teleporting in and out of combat, lightning reflexes, reposition, etc. looking to protect our models against retaliation. Sometimes this is very difficult to do, and only experience will let you play properly, but we have the tools.
Devourer's host is in my opinion one of the best themes to start playing. It makes you learn to play quickly to not clock yourself (something I am still working on) and likes the jam and flank tactic. It relies mostly on annoy your opponent with no-knockdown tough units, while giving you freedom on the caster to pick. Casters that are great here: Krueger1, Baldur1, Una2, Morv2, Wurmwood, Mohsar, Kromac2.
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Post by Fudly on Oct 12, 2017 16:46:02 GMT
1) In Circle, you almost certainly want a source of primal in your list.
2) Have a plan for your fury. You need less fury management if you expect the models with fury to die. You need more if you expect them to live.
3) Don't build your list in a vacuum. Know what you are trying to beat with it. One list won't have game into everything. Your list doesn't need magic weapons if it won't be seeing a wraith engine. Currently, Circle needs a plan to beat ranged lists, armor, and Cryx.
4) Keep scenario in mind. There's no good reason for every circle list to not have a solo and a unit to score with. If you don't plan on winning with scenario, you should at least try to not lose on scenario.
5) Play a lot and build a lot of lists.
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Post by Dev Null on Oct 12, 2017 17:13:19 GMT
3) Don't build your list in a vacuum. Know what you are trying to beat with it. One list won't have game into everything. Your list doesn't need magic weapons if it won't be seeing a wraith engine. Currently, Circle needs a plan to beat ranged lists, armor, and Cryx. This. One of the hardest things for me to learn about WMH was that it's pretty much always a game of rock-paper-scissors. No matter what list you create - even if you play "all comers" lists with your friends - there is going to be some list out there that is your personal kryptonite. This is the reason why almost all competitive games involve bringing multiple lists, and competitive players spend half of their time talking about "list chicken". With friendly games, we started out trying to ignore this, but it doesn't really work out - it just means that sometimes you get really boring one-sided games by chance, instead of by winning or losing the list selection process. My game time is too precious for that. I find the best way to play friendly games is to bring two lists, and discuss with my opponent which pair will make the most interesting game. Sometimes you'll choose the hard matchup, just for fun, but at least you know what you're in for...
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Post by fauste on Oct 13, 2017 1:28:58 GMT
As far as list building guidlines: 1: make sure you have a fury or 2 over your warlocks fury available from your selected beasts. -eg: Mohsar is fury 8 so he wants a bg that can generate at least 9-10 Fury so he takes 2 warpwolves and a woldwyrd! That's a great concept for me to think about when list building, thanks! 2: Make sure you have a goal for the list -Do you want to focus on assasiantion? Attrition? Or Scenario? I tend to pick 2 of those as my lists focus but always make sure I can play for all 3 if necessary. How would you classify the list I have above? An attrition list, I assume? 5: Most importantly play what you like. -I started Mk3 by playing Mohsar a lot. People would tell me he was garbage, or ask me why I played him instead of power casters like 2Una and Wurmwood pre nerf but I would just say, because I love hm, the fluff, the rules it all just is so fun and cool to me. Sure he has flaws, but some of the most fun I had in mk3 has been working with Mohsar and figuring out what he does best. I think the problem I have, is that I like playing the models that I like the look of, but they might actually not be what makes a good list. I've got Grayle, Tanith, Wurmwood, and Morvhanna1. My wurmwood experiences have been....not good (even though the lore and model is so cool). My most regular opponent enjoys the numbers side of things more and may just have a better grasp of what it takes to make a successful list. Hence, my opening question about things to consider. 1) In Circle, you almost certainly want a source of primal in your list. 3) Don't build your list in a vacuum. Know what you are trying to beat with it. One list won't have game into everything. Your list doesn't need magic weapons if it won't be seeing a wraith engine. Currently, Circle needs a plan to beat ranged lists, armor, and Cryx Is Cryx a difficult matchup by nature for Circle? My main opponent plays Cryx and that's what I'm building my lists to face this weekend.
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Post by Fudly on Oct 13, 2017 3:44:43 GMT
Cryx is currently a hard matchup for everyone. The Denny1 ghost fleet/coven dark host pairing in particular is a one-two combo that is hard for most factions to deal with (or at least it was pre-theme drop). Denny1 is probably op. If your friend is not playing those lists, you should be fine.
I think Circle can deal with banes and ghost fleet. You're just limited to a couple casters/lists.
I'd bet on:
Krueger1 Devourer's Host Baldur2 bones/wrath Baldur2 bones/warden spam Grayle Devourer's Host
These might do it: Kromac1 call Kromac1 devourer's host Krueger2 bones/wrath/warden spam Mohsar bones/warden spam Mohsar Devourer's Host Morvahna1 Devourer's Host Wurmwood Devourer's Host
Almost everything else probably loses with players of equal skill.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 13, 2017 13:03:58 GMT
fausteI would classify your list as an attrition/scenario list. You don't have too many assassination angles but you have a solid anchor in the woldwrath and good line of infantry with the reeves and Skinwalkers. You are gonna want to be playing a little defensively and soften your opponent up with shooting before you start committing things. After that its all match up and scenario dependent. I understand about playing with models you like the look and feel of more than their table top effectiveness. But one of the things you have to keep in mind is that Circle has a really high learning curve. It always has. Our models are expensive, fragile, and hard to get the most effective use out of but give a huge reward when you can make them work they way they were supposed to. Wurmwood is a perfect example. I still think he is hands down, the best caster in faction but he takes a lot of practice to get used to. In timed environments he can eat up clock and he tends to always force the player (on both sides) to make hard choices each turn. If you want some Wurmwood tactics I can try and help you in a PM or we can start a thread on it! I think there is also a wurmwood tactica in the "wilding way" discussion on this sub forum. What does your regular opponent usually play? Is it cryx? Specifically what kind of cryx? Right now cryx is a faction you need very specific answers for because they are getting rained on by the golden shower of the Developer Gods....Damn you PPS_Strawman... Honestly, IME circle has a lot of the tools to deal with cryx. Our problem match up is dark host. Lots of good arm dudes that ignore terrain and hit like really accurate trucks.
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Post by Lord_Randall on Oct 13, 2017 14:03:33 GMT
Cryx are never easy... even with a dedicated list. Lots of things can go wrong, like terribly wrong.
But we have good tools for cryx. Probably our worst match is protectorate.
Best tips for listbuilding probably is: build list with a plan. Usually face-tanking a frontal assault don't works for us. Denied flank and concentration of ofrce in specific zone of the fight are key for the win. Be sure to bring good contesting pieces for buy time while your main force is focusing on key areas or targets.
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Post by newangel on Oct 13, 2017 14:16:10 GMT
I'd say it's hard to look at the Cryx match-up without also trying to tie it into other factions that you expect to see. Cygnar is another faction that needs some very specific answers to and is likely to be found in your meta. Even just 1 Cygnar player will shape the meta around them much like Cryx does (we have 2 Cygnar players and 1 Cryx and everyone brings answers come the monthly steamroller since they do so well).
While you can try and build 1 list to tackle each of these factions I'm currently working on trying to find a way for 1 list to handle both leaving my other list free to handle whatever is left. I personally rate eKrueger highly in this regard.
For the Cryx matchup he has a control feat and solid scenario scoring capability (both of which are important against Ghost Fleet and Dark Host). Bringing him along will immediately give Ghost Fleet a problem since their guns suddenly lose 5" of range meaning they are having to over commit to get work done. This in turn leads to better opportunities to remove whole units or having them come back so far back that are are irrelevant next turn anyway.
Vs Dark Host essentially losing a turn vs the Coven on their Feat turn can mean practically losing the game there and then so it's important to have some control elements (Circle typically can't run anything too durable other than the Woldwrath and I mention Coven in particular since their Dark Host list is probably the most difficult one for us in Circle). The counter control Feat pays off here as you get a turn to actually get into zones and not immediately lose the game.
At the WTC I ran eKrueger and had the chance to go into Dark Host (led by Scaverous):
eKrueger -Woldwrath -Woldwyrd -Woldwyrd -Woldwyrd
Celestial Fulcrum
Blackclad Wayfarer Blackclad Wayfarer Stoneshaper Stoneshaper Gallows Grove
Sentry Stone Sentry Stone Shifting Stones
This was a real grind and though I won I don't think it would have been as easy had it been run by the Coven. Their control really shuts down a lot of ranged offense this list brings and forces you to play less aggressively. The Woldwrath makes a solid anchor that I don't think could be replaced by any amount of heavies.
Moving onto Cygnar...eKrueger in Bones naturally has good game here into everything except Sloan. The eHaley matchup really comes down to player skill (though in some cases if they load up on electrical weapons they are going to be hurting). Woldwyrds keep Arcane shield off the heavies and this allows the BE to get some serious work done. Again, having a control feat and ranged defense helps immensely in the match-up.
I think that most of the above lists also have solid game into the Cryx match-up if that's what you are looking for specifically. I just chose eKrueger as that's the Warlock I know best. For general advice I'd just say practice, practice, practice. The more you play with the same list the easier it becomes to spot it's weaknesses and then tweak it to better suit your needs (rather than just getting advice to tech for a specific opponent and then steamrolling them...not saying that is happening here but something to consider. I have a regular opponent and sometimes you just end up slightly over-teching for what you are used to because it's what you always face).
Some lists can get away without solos or units since they attrition or contest so well. I don't think Circle really has some kind of algorithm that determines your list construction. CotW and Bones are our Beast themes (and good ones with the right Warlocks at that) while in Devourers Host and The Wild Hunt you will find much more infantry. Circle usually has a decent amount of control allowing us to get a sneaky control point and a lot of options for teching into just about anything...we just can't do it all at once.
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