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Post by Gaston on Oct 11, 2017 1:17:17 GMT
This probably won't end well, but what is the consensus on Protectorate's five worst casters? I’m curious on the “why” you ask this.... Can't a fellow make idle chit chat?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 11, 2017 1:23:51 GMT
I’m curious on the “why” you ask this.... Can't a fellow make idle chit chat? well, even though I threw out a list, I'm not sure this particular topic has any meaningful benefit to anyone. No matter what the bottom 5 actually would be, they won't be perceived as in the top 4, ergo they'll see much less tournament play. At the same time, come casual Wednesday or whatever night your local meta meets, people are just going to play what they feel like and will care a lot less. Also, the only reason this topic hasn't exploded is probably because my own 'innocent salt' thread has yet to be locked somehow.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Oct 11, 2017 1:35:51 GMT
I’m curious on the “why” you ask this.... Can't a fellow make idle chit chat? Sorry Gaston, not you. I figure you're looking to 1) go Hipster and play the 'bad' casters, or 2) set up some interesting video batreps for your YouTube channel, or 3) wasn't there a Protectorate podcast previously? What better way to relaunch? Random aside, I've given up Skorne and Minions and now fully back on Protectorate 100%.
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Post by Gaston on Oct 11, 2017 3:31:33 GMT
A) Firetruck hipsters 2) eReznik is already on tape and perhaps Durst may make a showing.....and Durst is really good!!! I also might have made a K2 dojo, Feora3 dojo, pReznik dojo......... III) No idea on any podcasts???
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Oct 11, 2017 5:27:01 GMT
To actually respond to the topic, I think that there might be agreement on several casters in the bottomfive but I think it is important to note that there is a large gulf of difference between the worst and the ones above, at least to me. I think that the Protectorate is very lucky in that many of our casters are viable to good, with some meh outliers, a couple of really good ones, and one that I think is truly bad. We don’t have a Mk 2 Haley2 in our ranks (and neither does Cygnar anymore hehehehe) but we have a deep pool of good, playable, competitive casters.
My votes would be:
1. Kreoss2 at the bottom. He is literally a walking feat that is scary, but has honestly not aged well. His entire spell list is of questionable utility. And he even lost personal threat with the removal of his AP attack.
2. Feora2 next. A spell that helps nuke infantry, a battlegroup threat extender, and a personal threat extender for a caster who is ish at assassination. Unfortunately she doesn’t help with heavy cracking and her feat is mediocre. I think Faithful Masses will bring her back into contention, though. Plus, she plays well into SR 2017. I think her star is on the rise.
3. Reznik1. He has a kickass spell list and a great feat, is totally battlegroup focused, and is a complete liability. He either doesn’t have enough focus to run his battlegroup, can’t stick offensive spells because of his FOC 6, or dies because he is fat and likes being up front. Reznik1 is a blast to play, but I swear that more often than not he is a day late and a dollar short.
4. Malekus. Just a confused caster overall. Wants a ranged battlegroup and provides it almost nothing. Has a decent spell list, a good feat, yet cannot help the battlegroup overcome RAT 5. Plus, his options for true synergy are either expensive heavies or short ranged lights. That said, his gameplay is straightforward and when it works it is brutal. I think he needs a couple of releases to crescendo into good.
5. I can’t think of a fifth.
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Post by paradox on Oct 11, 2017 10:56:31 GMT
Id agree to Kreoss2 and Feora2. Everyone plays Vindy or ToM instead of Kreoss2 because they play his game better. That doesnt make him bad though, just a clearly less optimal choice in his desired mode of play. Which easily qualifies him as bottom five because were ranking, and that makes winners and losers. Feora2 in that she feels like she needs 1-3 more things to work right. Again, not bad, but she feels like she just took cuts, and Feora1 or 3, or Malekus all seem like they do her schtik better. And then Amon has Mobility to her Escort. From there? I have not gotten to Rez1 he does get himself in touble alot, but his big trick is a spell, so hiero, wracks, a node, and youre fine? Dunno if he falls in bottom 5. I likewise dont have Malekus, so Im stuck accepting hes meh. He doesnt look bad though. Rez2 gets in even more trouble, but got a bit more survivable. Still, his kit usually begs to get him in, where a huge base makes him a huge target. That said, I have a list that can heal him 6d3+3 each turn. Im sure lots of people put Feora1 here, but they are wrong. ToM? But now people seem to like him, and HR disappeared. Tough to say, beyond the first two. Themes seem to be helping lots of casters out.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Oct 11, 2017 11:05:56 GMT
A) Firetruck hipsters 2) eReznik is already on tape and perhaps Durst may make a showing.....and Durst is really good!!! I also might have made a K2 dojo, Feora3 dojo, pReznik dojo......... III) No idea on any podcasts??? Do you have battlereports for Durst? Or do you have a suggested list? I think you mentioned flameguard theme somewhere...
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Post by Gaston on Oct 11, 2017 12:44:55 GMT
A) Firetruck hipsters 2) eReznik is already on tape and perhaps Durst may make a showing.....and Durst is really good!!! I also might have made a K2 dojo, Feora3 dojo, pReznik dojo......... III) No idea on any podcasts??? Do you have battlereports for Durst? Or do you have a suggested list? I think you mentioned flameguard theme somewhere... Do not believe me, as I am always wrong, but the Durst game should go up on the YouTube channel Nov 3. I built my list pre-theme change, so I was actually using Girded, believe it or not. Anson Durst, Guardians of the Temple -Reckoner -Reckoner -Templar Nicia (free) Pyrrhus (free) Vassal Mechanik x2 Vassal of Menoth x2 Wracks x2 Choir (min) Daughters of the Flame Flamebringers (max) Temple Flameguard (max) -UA Pre-video playtesting, the list went 3-0, it feels crunchy and has been good to me.
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Post by flamigant on Oct 11, 2017 14:03:37 GMT
Gaston are you back playing PoM fulltime? Those dirty elves do not deserve you.
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Post by Gaston on Oct 11, 2017 14:58:08 GMT
Gaston are you back playing PoM fulltime? Those dirty elves do not deserve you. Probably not fulltime, but a break was nice. And PoM is in such a great place at the moment, it is fantastic; even before Faithful Masses dropped.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Oct 11, 2017 15:03:25 GMT
ToM? But now people seem to like him, and HR disappeared. Tough to say, beyond the first two. Themes seem to be helping lots of casters out. ToM may have spiked due to being found as strong into Cryx (pre-satyxis theme), but HR would be the better overall pick. I am super interested to try HoF Idrians in exemplar theme. HoF Idrians + cleansers in flameguard theme could be hilarious, too.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Oct 11, 2017 15:05:22 GMT
Id agree to Kreoss2 and Feora2. Everyone plays Vindy or ToM instead of Kreoss2 because they play his game better. That doesnt make him bad though, just a clearly less optimal choice in his desired mode of play. Which easily qualifies him as bottom five because were ranking, and that makes winners and losers. Feora2 in that she feels like she needs 1-3 more things to work right. Again, not bad, but she feels like she just took cuts, and Feora1 or 3, or Malekus all seem like they do her schtik better. And then Amon has Mobility to her Escort. From there? I have not gotten to Rez1 he does get himself in touble alot, but his big trick is a spell, so hiero, wracks, a node, and youre fine? Dunno if he falls in bottom 5. I likewise dont have Malekus, so Im stuck accepting hes meh. He doesnt look bad though. Rez2 gets in even more trouble, but got a bit more survivable. Still, his kit usually begs to get him in, where a huge base makes him a huge target. That said, I have a list that can heal him 6d3+3 each turn. Im sure lots of people put Feora1 here, but they are wrong. ToM? But now people seem to like him, and HR disappeared. Tough to say, beyond the first two. Themes seem to be helping lots of casters out. I pretty much exactly agree with you. I have a dimmer view of Kreoss2 because I of the dim view I have on his spell list, which is pretty integral to how a Warcaster plays. But he is the only one I would actually rank truly low. Feora2 is down there for the exact reason you said, but to me she is above Kreoss2 and is still the best at doling out fire effects reliably and safely. With the shift to SR2017 and the rise of more infantry and solos, this is a good thing. I can't tell you how much Khador's infantry-based gunlines hate seeing her. I actually think Reznik1 and Malekus are both good. The inherent problem with rating scales via text is that you can't see the granularity of the system. To me it'd probably appear something like Kreoss2 --------------------------------------------------Feora2 --------- Reznik1 -- Malekus -- Everyone else. Reznik1 gets in trouble when you try to use his Feat because he's FOC 6 and he always misses a critical spell for the same reason. I've said since Mk. 2 that the only thing I feel he really needs to be competitive is a shift to FOC 7. Perhaps a point of ARM too, but I won't be greedy.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Oct 11, 2017 15:12:32 GMT
Do you have battlereports for Durst? Or do you have a suggested list? I think you mentioned flameguard theme somewhere... Do not believe me, as I am always wrong, but the Durst game should go up on the YouTube channel Nov 3. I built my list pre-theme change, so I was actually using Girded, believe it or not. Anson Durst, Guardians of the Temple -Reckoner -Reckoner -Templar Nicia (free) Pyrrhus (free) Vassal Mechanik x2 Vassal of Menoth x2 Wracks x2 Choir (min) Daughters of the Flame Flamebringers (max) Temple Flameguard (max) -UA Pre-video playtesting, the list went 3-0, it feels crunchy and has been good to me. Interesting and fairly unique lists, will be interesting to see how it flows on the table. To answer your question is difficult. I was posting in another thread about Feora 2 and it got me thinking about what a good caster actually is. I guess theres 2 basic questions : what is the caster MEANT to do,and can the caster ACTUALLY do it. For an example of a caster that I think we can all agree is effective: Amon. His purpose is to run warjack heavy : battle group speed buff, including base speed increase and pathfinder, arm buff for one warjack, synergy (which increases melee effectiveness of entire battlegroup), and a feat that centres around handing out focus to battlegroup. He pretty much ticks every box, almost to the point that other battlegroup casters are overshadowed compared to him because his toolbox is so complete. In comparison with a caster who isn't as widely accepted: Feora2. She's supposed to run battle group heavy with an emphasis on using fire creatively: she has a lamer speed buff (not a base speed increase, no pathfinder, but does buff caster armour, no damage out put increase abilities, a fire spell for one battle group model, and a feat that focuses on moving fire, and gaining and handing out focus to battle group. Feora2's issue is she doesn't quite so battlegroup stuff as well as Amon, and her fire capabilities are opponent dependant- most infantry that takes a fire damage roll tends to die immediately,and a warjack doesn't care about fire when it gets put onto them. Her target with that is casters and solos, but casters can generally survive a fire damage roll thanks to focus. It's tricky. She reminds me a lot of Butcher2 - a really amazing idea but not quite there in execution.
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Post by Gaston on Oct 11, 2017 15:13:49 GMT
Id agree to Kreoss2 and Feora2. Everyone plays Vindy or ToM instead of Kreoss2 because they play his game better. That doesnt make him bad though, just a clearly less optimal choice in his desired mode of play. Which easily qualifies him as bottom five because were ranking, and that makes winners and losers. Feora2 in that she feels like she needs 1-3 more things to work right. Again, not bad, but she feels like she just took cuts, and Feora1 or 3, or Malekus all seem like they do her schtik better. And then Amon has Mobility to her Escort. From there? I have not gotten to Rez1 he does get himself in touble alot, but his big trick is a spell, so hiero, wracks, a node, and youre fine? Dunno if he falls in bottom 5. I likewise dont have Malekus, so Im stuck accepting hes meh. He doesnt look bad though. Rez2 gets in even more trouble, but got a bit more survivable. Still, his kit usually begs to get him in, where a huge base makes him a huge target. That said, I have a list that can heal him 6d3+3 each turn. Im sure lots of people put Feora1 here, but they are wrong. ToM? But now people seem to like him, and HR disappeared. Tough to say, beyond the first two. Themes seem to be helping lots of casters out. I pretty much exactly agree with you. I have a dimmer view of Kreoss2 because I of the dim view I have on his spell list, which is pretty integral to how a Warcaster plays. But he is the only one I would actually rank truly low. Feora2 is down there for the exact reason you said, but to me she is above Kreoss2 and is still the best at doling out fire effects reliably and safely. With the shift to SR2017 and the rise of more infantry and solos, this is a good thing. I can't tell you how much Khador's infantry-based gunlines hate seeing her. I actually think Reznik1 and Malekus are both good. The inherent problem with rating scales via text is that you can't see the granularity of the system. To me it'd probably appear something like Kreoss2 --------------------------------------------------Feora2 --------- Reznik1 -- Malekus -- Everyone else. Reznik1 gets in trouble when you try to use his Feat because he's FOC 6 and he always misses a critical spell for the same reason. I've said since Mk. 2 that the only thing I feel he really needs to be competitive is a shift to FOC 7. Perhaps a point of ARM too, but I won't be greedy. One thing I felt was the expansion of mercs in themes and the release of Eilish would be enough to make pReznik's spells more reliabe. It sucks to get that low roll at a critical time with him, and was a problem for me last edition as well.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 11, 2017 15:48:10 GMT
I was also thinking of puppet master being a big deal for him. You can also double punish opponents for offensive spells as you get the move attack and ellish can plink for d3 damage.
I plan on running this: Reznick1: FM -Hierophant -Scourge -Sanctifier -Guardian -Reckoner Max Idrians -UA Min Zealots -UA Max Chior Mechanic Wrack Ellish Garrity
Idea is with HoV, Ignit, and Battle my jacks are monsters, if you can add in Brand things get silly. Scourge will just outright kill gargossals with all of that. The guardian is a hard hitting arc node and the Sanctifier does what everyone thinks it does. Last game I had it kill, Dozer and Smigg, a Bomber, a war wagon, and an objective while the rest of my jacks took the majority of my opponents attention.
Zealots could always be replaced with another reckoner but I like them as a tarpit and trigger for HoV.
Edit; Got the points to work for Ellish!
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