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Post by Gaston on Oct 7, 2017 13:40:52 GMT
This probably won't end well, but what is the consensus on Protectorate's five worst casters?
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 7, 2017 14:39:22 GMT
From internet talk I'd guess Feora2, Kreoss2, Malekus, Reznik2, Reznik1?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 7, 2017 15:02:36 GMT
It's a hard thing to say, really. I think the list would be:
-Reznik 1. His card gives so many powerful options that he seems amazing, but he's stretched thin and in odd ways on the table, actively avoiding about half his own kit or more most turns, while still not getting good reliability from anything. See the various threads for more.
-Feora 2. Scalpeling out important models with fire that doesn't die is great, and she's actually one of our tankiest. She also brings one of our more exciting characters along for the ride, complete with a super useful bond. Unfortunately, that's where her game pretty much ends: no pathfinder, no defenses, no damage or accuracy buffs, no edge. I expect her to gain legs in faithful masses, but others who already had game get the same bonuses. May be among our best into grymkin though.
-Malekus. His problems are simple: he wants a gunline but solves none of the counters for gunlines that good gunline casters are packing. Also, his kit is a bunch of individually good parts that lead to very little actual synergy, which is the only way our faction tends to get wins. Currently the only three things keeping him going are access to Eye of Truth, arguable the best warjack in game and definitely in faction, a legitimate BG based assassination threat with scourge and open fire, and an admittedly brutal feat turn...when it works.
-Durst. Half his kit uses the words base-to-base: coupled with our speeds, this is a death sentence in SR2017. Just about every situation he's viable in is better handled by someone else. Really unfortunate because his kit is cohesive and actually quite good at what it does, but the environment does not generally allow success for that kind of play.
-Testament. Again a victim of the meta more than his own "weakness": the only games he plays are soul fueled resurrection and a surprise assassination, either by incorp charges or more soul fuel. In a meta where magical weapons and mass RFP has been brought both to high value AND high availability, he's caught in the crossfire and it severely reduces his chances for either game to work. The flip side is when the opponent is NOT packing these tools: he'll casually grind the enemy to a pulp, often without permanently losing anyone at all.
There are others that are not quite shiny right now, but in my experience the ones i'd expect to do the worst with are those.
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Post by djgibraltar on Oct 7, 2017 18:31:48 GMT
i think 5 is maybe too much. Here is a list of caster theme combos that probably make them viable enough to not be able to be a bottom.
Feora Probably bottom 5.
EFeora I think she might have a really strong build in faightful masses. to be seen. otherwise bottom 5
F3ora I think ppl havent completely figured her out yet. But im sure she has a viable build somewhere. Probably masses but maybe elsewhere also.
Kreoss He has definite playability in Faightful Masses.
EKreoss I have been playing a Guardians build with him to some success. He has game in Exemplar. although not trash. he might be bottome 5.
Kr3oss Not top 5 but not bottom either. I dont think he has a perfect build but he has such a toolbox that he has good builds.
HR Ive been considering both a Faightful Masses with idrians as target for feat and trigger for hand of vengeance jack spam as well as a guardians with double cleansers as feat target with S&P. (on a side note am i the only one hoping for his character jack soon. He needs a little love in that regard)
Testament Strong in Exemplar interdiction
Reznick1 Still solid caster but still not sure what his best build is. maybe bottom 5
EReznick Now with idrians he is strong in creator`s might. Can work in guardians as a complete anti infantry build. And maybe in masses as a jack spam with idrians again as hand of vengeance and death march unit. Severius
ESeverius Creator`s Might. Maybe Faightful Masses
Harbinger Faightful Masses for sure. Ive got a really insane build that shocked me with how good it was.
Amon Creator`s might and probably Masses as a heavy build.
Tristan Never played him. hes boring. who cares. Probably bottom 5 although might have a strong build in Masses. Really make his hitting power of his jacks go through the roof between manifest, choir, hand of vengeance.
Durst I love durst. Creator`s Might, Faightful Masses.
Malekeus He is still misplaced. If they add Hand of judgment to guardians or make a fire theme he will have a fit. for now. Maybe bottom 5
Thyra One of our top 5 with multiple builds.
Vindictus One of our top 5 with multiple builds.
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So looking at that. if i choose i would say the bottom 5 are probably Feora 1, Reznick 1, Malekeus as really no obvious strong builds (shoutout to the Feora1 thread that is giving me ideas)
Tristan (might be really strong in Masses if not bottom 5) Kreoss 2 (has strong builds but others do it better. Altough really interesting in Guardians) Feora 2 (If i am correct about my faightful Masses build hse is not. i think she has something now) HR (not sure yet. Hes not weak. Just not sure what his current ideal build is).
But for all of that i see something to do with almost all these casters.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Oct 9, 2017 20:37:24 GMT
It's hard to say since it is not always that they are necessarily all bad rules wise , sometimes a caster might have decent rules, but too many bad-matchups in the current meta. Other time the caster has too many rules that don't work together or don't support the intended playstyle and probably should be redesigned.
So bad-matchup wise I tend to stay away from these, although, they can be decent as an alternate list ... Harbinger Testament Kreoss 2 (although I have been thinking about him again now with the Exemplar Interdiction theme)
not functioning as well as they could/should be or are just outperformed by casters who do the same things, but better...
Reznik Feora 2
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Oct 10, 2017 1:49:30 GMT
It's too soon after the theme drop to get a consensus . Malekus, Feora2, Kreoss2, Reznik1 and Tristan2 (so long as our heavy infantry suck) are all safe bets to me. The multiple mentions of Testament made me re compare him to Kreoss2. Doesn't matter how much Band of Heroes/Masters of War/Thexus/whatever I might expect at an event, I'd still rather Testament. Self-sac and the feat give enough of a game into those bad matchups to not be considered Kreoss2 level.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 10, 2017 12:31:26 GMT
It's too soon after the theme drop to get a consensus . Malekus, Feora2, Kreoss2, Reznik1 and Tristan2 (so long as our heavy infantry suck) are all safe bets to me. The multiple mentions of Testament made me re compare him to Kreoss2. Doesn't matter how much Band of Heroes/Masters of War/Thexus/whatever I might expect at an event, I'd still rather Testament. Self-sac and the feat give enough of a game into those bad matchups to not be considered Kreoss2 level. Self sac only gets you so far. If an opponents entire army has RFP testamemt is pretty much an auto loss. No souls =no meaningful recursion. Vinny and Kreoss 3 run Interdiction best IMO. Vinny really supports Exemplar well and Kreoss 3 is a really solid all round caster. I would like to try Kreoss 2. Just to see if he really is that bad. I would say bottom 5 casters are from worst to better: 1:Feora 2 2: Malekus 3: Kreoss 2 (though I’m not sold on this yet) 4:Durst (Mostly because SR2017) 5: this is really hard. We have a few options but I am not really sold on them being in the bottom because most of the argument starts becoming meta dependent Options: -Testamemt: while incredibly potent in the right match up, but there are so many bad match ups that float around for him right now. Anything that can turn off his soul collecting and or recursion (does not have to be both at the same time) turns off his entire kit. He is either on fire or cold and that’s bad for List chicken. -Reznick 1: A lot of people have disdain for the high executioner but I honestly think he has some viability in the current meta. He has a really interesting and pretty powerful field marshal, can Take scourge of heresy in any theme, and has the potential to wreck anything he can get brand off on. Which is not that hard with a Hierophant or Arc node. His biggest issue is he has a very low focus stat and he is not very hard to kill, which makes him unable to play as far forward as he really should. I think Faithful Masses is the key with him. Being able to crank a colossal/garg in one round with ignite/battle/HoV/Brand on just about any jack (with vassals and a Hierophant this only costs him 4 Focus (upkeep ignite, cast brand under harmonious, boost to hit) and he has a nice wall to camp behind. With the book you are also safe from KD/Stationary. I think there is potential here Overall we have a very solid stable. Honestly outside of the medium based Exemplar our whole faction seems to be in a well balanced state. Faithful masses and the inclusion of Mercs in Theme has really helped a lot of our theme force issues. I think if every faction were as balanced as protectorate the game would be in a much better place
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Post by Gaston on Oct 10, 2017 12:48:45 GMT
I am somewhat surprised that people don't run more jack heavy with eKreoss.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 10, 2017 13:34:31 GMT
I am somewhat surprised that people don't run more jack heavy with eKreoss. Outside of his feat what does he do for them? Sacrosanct is ok on a screen, IR is ok on one jack like a templar, but outside of his feat I don't really see him supporting jacks much. Running combined arms in Interdiction could be a thing. Having about 4 jacks and then filling the rest with dudes. edit: Maybe you could run him with the Revelator or Judicator? With IR and choir it can be a really hard anchor to remove, errants with sacrosanct to screen and Knights E for the counter charge.
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Post by Gaston on Oct 10, 2017 14:08:42 GMT
I am somewhat surprised that people don't run more jack heavy with eKreoss. Outside of his feat what does he do for them? Sacrosanct is ok on a screen, IR is ok on one jack like a templar, but outside of his feat I don't really see him supporting jacks much. Running combined arms in Interdiction could be a thing. Having about 4 jacks and then filling the rest with dudes. edit: Maybe you could run him with the Revelator or Judicator? With IR and choir it can be a really hard anchor to remove, errants with sacrosanct to screen and Knights E for the counter charge. Obviously the counter question is outside his feat, what does he do for infantry? Sacrosanct can go on a screen, whether it is good or not can be a matter of match up or opinion. IR is just stronger on a colossal. I had great success running him with a Judicator in Mk2 actually. The thing with him though is that he does nothing to help deliver the army, hence the preference of Vindictus over K2. With regard to jacks and the feat, one of the interesting things is how he interacts with jack marshals. I have found that when you reach a certain level of Pow, it is better to just stack more attacks if possible. Consider Faithful Masses--theoretically you could marshal a Sanctifier. It collects 3 souls and Hand of Vengeance. Choir, feat, JM free charge. So he rolls in with 5 swings at Pow 21. On Army 19 that works out to about 48 damage. Alternatively, if you are willing to Crusher instead, that works out to 6 swings at Pow 23, or 66 damage on Arm 19. It is probably a bad idea to actually put a heavy onto the Reclaimer, but you get the drift. You could always do similar in EI, you just lose out on the +2/+2. More interestingly, you could JM a Templar to a Bastion Senny, for Blessings of Iron. Then the feat can make up for the loss of one focus. At that point you get to Arm 21 with Crusher, 4 swings, rolls in at 40 damage, which is respectable at least. WRT a colossal on Kreoss, they start at 21, 23 with Choir, 25 in FM, the extra feat attack gets them 6 swings, so 78 damage on Arm 19 if you didn't charge.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 10, 2017 14:44:03 GMT
So now for the counter counter question outside of his feat, what does he do? haha He feels a lot like malekus, He has a really powerful feat, but after he feats he loses a lot of steam. I mean IR is great on a colossal so lets assume we build list centralized around the revelator with IR since that and castigate seem to be the more impressive spells on his card. Castigate is particularly potent into hordes and any caster that relies on arc nodes to play safe and still have impact on the game but that seems to be where the good stuff stops (outside of his feat) I think sacrosanct has a lot of potential on a unit like zealots. but it would be better if it was like vinny's spell where it did auto damage. KD is cool but because it only affects regular warrior models its kind of situational and if your opponent has anti kd tech...well... I think the issue here is sure, on feat turn Kreoss 2 can do a crap ton of damage. But outside of feat turn you are left asking yourself "what makes this caster special? why am I running him in this list instead of say feora 3 who makes her entire army devastating every turn? I mean a sanctifier under amon can pump out 41 damage and threats 12" with pathfinder and mat 11!. sure you have to allocate focus but that is an every turn potential right there. Kreoss 3 who can give any jack free charges and plus 2 movement. Giving sanctifiers a longer threat, while still being able to use crush, and this is possible every turn. (Thats not even counting dps with ignite and crush) Like I said earlier, I do want to try Kreoss 2 and I think Ill like him more with some in game experience but I have doubts about him being able to run heavy on one thing or another.
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Post by Gaston on Oct 10, 2017 15:14:48 GMT
So now for the counter counter question outside of his feat, what does he do? haha He feels a lot like malekus, He has a really powerful feat, but after he feats he loses a lot of steam. I mean IR is great on a colossal so lets assume we build list centralized around the revelator with IR since that and castigate seem to be the more impressive spells on his card. Castigate is particularly potent into hordes and any caster that relies on arc nodes to play safe and still have impact on the game but that seems to be where the good stuff stops (outside of his feat) I think sacrosanct has a lot of potential on a unit like zealots. but it would be better if it was like vinny's spell where it did auto damage. KD is cool but because it only affects regular warrior models its kind of situational and if your opponent has anti kd tech...well... I think the issue here is sure, on feat turn Kreoss 2 can do a crap ton of damage. But outside of feat turn you are left asking yourself "what makes this caster special? why am I running him in this list instead of say feora 3 who makes her entire army devastating every turn? I mean a sanctifier under amon can pump out 41 damage and threats 12" with pathfinder and mat 11!. sure you have to allocate focus but that is an every turn potential right there. Kreoss 3 who can give any jack free charges and plus 2 movement. Giving sanctifiers a longer threat, while still being able to use crush, and this is possible every turn. (Thats not even counting dps with ignite and crush) Like I said earlier, I do want to try Kreoss 2 and I think Ill like him more with some in game experience but I have doubts about him being able to run heavy on one thing or another. I mean we are in the bottom of the faction thread. eKreoss has been a boring feat bot for a decade, so basically you are going to be running a list with him with the objective of playing eKreoss more than anything else. I think the jack versus infantry question to me is: on feat turn you are going to do a crap ton of damage with Kreoss....then what? If you succeeded in doing a crap ton of damage, then you opponent conceivably has nothing left that can threaten an Arm 21, 60 box colossal. Conversely, if you failed to do enough damage and are running an infantry heavy list, then said infantry are much easier to remove than a colossal; and after they commit to killing the colossal, you'll still have the rest there to counter attack. Realistically, I think he ends up running a relatively mixed arms list, maybe one-two units a colossal, and some heavies?
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 10, 2017 15:36:54 GMT
Ok so using the feat and hope you killed enough mentality what about running this: kreoss: FM -Revelator -Fire of Salvation -Templar Reclaimer -Sanctifier? Max Zealots with Ua min chior mechanic Zealots die slowly thanks to Sacrosanct (hopefully) and screen and then you just apply liberal use of HoV jacks to the face on feat turn? Or do you think Creators might with an idrians screen is better for the free support? I am kind of leaning towards that...darn it man you got me thinking of Jack lists with kreoss 2...you are a monster
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Oct 10, 2017 15:37:11 GMT
I'd consider an EI list with him that featured 4x squads of Knights Exemplar, a Colossal, a couple of budget heavies, and choir. It'd kind of be a "best of both worlds" approach without diluting the army too much.
That is, if I ran Kreoss2. He sucks out loud.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Oct 11, 2017 0:03:45 GMT
This probably won't end well, but what is the consensus on Protectorate's five worst casters? I’m curious on the “why” you ask this....
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