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Post by neutralyze on Oct 8, 2017 23:07:18 GMT
Scythean is a great warbeast. I’m actually shocked at how many people here do not like it.
Pros
1. Longer threat range in melee over the Carnivean.
2. Grevious wounds as an animus is powerful into some matchups, a lot that are becoming mainstream in the competitive meta
3. Murderous is extremely powerful and in most situations ends games trivially.
I’ve played many games with Abby2 where I trample over several infantry models with mat8 and murderous. It’s not hard to kill nearly a unit or even more depending on what their build is.
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Post by Falcen on Oct 9, 2017 0:20:54 GMT
Overall I agree with neutralyze about the Scythan, but have to add some thoughts...
1.) The threat is only 1" higher, question is: is this worth -2 P+S and a free spray? Most of the time my answer to that is no, because the chassis' threat isn't as superior as it used to be.
2.) Murderous is a great and potentially a game-ending ability, IF you can get your Scyth to the opponent's caster. But then there is the issue again that its threat range isn't as superior to threats other factions can pull off regulary as it was in MK2.
3.) Abby2 is sadly the only warlock I consider the Scyth seriously, due to her broad stat buffs. Rhyas is an option I can see working, but I don't have experience with her, others have to make a call on that. This means (assuming my assessment is right) it's only a niche model - I would like to see more spaces for one of our "basic" beasts.
Due to more frequent erratas and CID the meta shifts faster than during the last edition... So maybe we'll be able to capitalize more on the Scyth, even if the beast itself doesn't change. At least I hope for this and generally more variation in our beast loudout.
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Post by neutralyze on Oct 9, 2017 1:15:33 GMT
Also with rhyas1. The placement ability with the feat gets the Scythean in a far place.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Oct 9, 2017 3:24:30 GMT
When Mk III dropped I like the Scythean more than the Carnivean, as the meta progressed and I saw less infantry I switched to a Carnivean but now that infantry's coming back I'm going back to the Scythean. A big part of that is because I have to worry about Doomshaper 3 and Grymkin in my local meta.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Oct 9, 2017 9:15:02 GMT
Fyanna, Kallus2, Rhyas, eAbby, Searyn, both Vayls and both Thags' have tech to either deliver a scythean or complement him. Not bad at all I think. The problem is that at 18 points you want something more than "not bad". Now that lists are playing more towards scenario I think he will settle in towards "good".
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Post by copperflame on Oct 9, 2017 15:19:45 GMT
I know that Fyanna2 gives him Overtake (and Fury is sweet on it) but for his cost versus his role (anti-infantry), I really think he could use it as a base line ability. For his points cost, its just hard to validate him. He just seems one little thing shy of being something awesome.
neutralyze don't get me wrong - I WANT to love that murderous beast. But Falcen already mentioned the core of the situation. You may be right, maybe it is just a meta shift waiting to happen. I know 'wanting it to change' is more of a 'hey, wouldn't it be nice'. And that is all we are discussing... well, that and the still ongoing/overall disappointment in what the Carnivean Chassis as a whole does compared to the cost. |
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202 
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Post by haurukh on Oct 9, 2017 15:44:03 GMT
I am feeling people sometimes underestimate the scythean by thinking of it as an "anti-infantry piece".
Sure, murderous and thresher combined with reach make for some extremely(!) fun turns sometimes where it really is "murderous" ^^.
Unless you catch 4 heavy infantry at once, it will never make up its 18 points this way.
I think the thing about the scythean, compared to teh carnivean, is that it has an additional inch of melee range + grievous wounds on demand, on top of the infantry killing mechanics.
At 1 PS lower, (and 1 point cheaper), you get a beast that follows the "constant damage" phylosoph mentioned in another thread, in that it is a dangerous piece for basically every enemy model. It can potentiall kill heavies, and murders infantry and casters outright.
It also engages a ton of models with reach on a large base, and has a potential threat range of 12" with slipstream (and let's be honest, we always have slip stream with carni chassis).
Thread of 12 means it can keep up in threat with something on SPD7 reach, which is pretty much the maximum you can expect of a heavy without caster support, and in fact teh maximum you can expect in many factions even with caster support.
The scythean is kept alive not by it's armor, but by staying out of threat until it is needed. It is tough enough to survive most shooting (that would not kill anything else as well) adn only get's into melee when we want it too.
If you commit either a scythean or a carni to the enemy lines, it is not like you expect either of them to live.
I still think it is a bit sad that our super expensive heavy beasts can be killed by pretty much any heavy (who is most likely cheaper) and still manage to kill only one heavy themselves.
For me, the carnivean has a slightly higher chance of surviving shooting undamaged (with expensive animus) and a slightly higher chance of killing an enemy heavy (slightly higher PS).
In exchange, the Scythean can make the damage stick on a heavy with its animus, and does not get jammed by infantry as easily as the carnivean.
Nothing is more sad than activating a carnivean to kill 2 stupid high def infantry models (and possible needing almost full fury for that).
TLDR:
Scythean threatens pretty much anything, and no enemy will ever put anything in front of it that he values. We can use that to our advantage.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 9, 2017 16:04:51 GMT
Again, the only one of the three I would run in the start of MK3 was the Scythean. I watch threads go wild about how terribly he is. I tried to change peoples minds then. But I can't look past the cost anymore. I have gotten to a point in Legion list building where I can stand to pay for 2 or maybe 3 heavies. After that I just can't watch the points disappear to a single model that I know I will not get enough work out of. The threat range can be 12. Yes. If you pay FOURTEEN points. My Scythean is now a 32 point package just to be worth using. Yes The seraph brings flare and a unreliable number of shots. But is that why you bring it? Is slipstream worth 14 points and, outside of oracles, possibly a solo/UA? I personally absolutely do not think so. Therefore I leave my carni chassis everything at home, I have a magnetized kit for a seraph but it nearly never moves. And I move on with my life. So until something comes down in points. I will not be running nearly any of our non-character heavies. No Carnivean, Scytehan, Ravagore, Angelius, or Seraph. If I want a heavy hitting single attack, I'll take Zuriel. If I want threat range, I'll take proteus. If I want good melee damage, I'll take warlords. If I want infantry clear I may even take Typhon. If I want a ranged def debuff I'll take bolt throwers and Azrael and boost to hit. But I will not be taking overpriced, under performing, liabilities.
That is only my opinion and it doesn't mean that anyone else is right or wrong. I play an odd Legion game. But I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees, no matter how good the heavies can be in the best situations, they all need a point cost re-evaluation.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Oct 9, 2017 21:41:34 GMT
Ravagore = Worth its points. I've never had a ravagore disappoint me. Sure they're less assassin-ey than mk2, but the scather has more board control, arcing fire messes with opponent formations more, and their improved melee performance leaves them one buff shy of being formidable in melee.
Carnivean = Spiny Growth needs to cost 1. That's pretty much my only gripe with it. I feel like the carnivean is meant to be able to go in on a target that's already taken a hit or two from a ranged attack, finish it off, and still have the fury to Spiny Growth itself afterwards to stand up to the retaliation.
Scythean = Never used it. I feel Proteus has taken its role and does a better job at it, and its threat range is too close to the carnivean now. Never felt inclined to include it in a theme list either. The throne also competes with it a lot, and the scythean just comes up short for rule bloat (thresher is largely useless on a 3-initial beast) and lack of tricks. I feel it should lose the bells and whistles and drop a few points to become our economy hitter.
The whole chassis could stand to gain +1 ARM due to its role and playstyle being definitely in the more bulky range, but that would be a pretty significant buff.
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Oct 10, 2017 14:10:30 GMT
I think +1 ARM might actually be okay, considering their cost and stats. I was trying to find some comparable model, to see where we stand. I did not want to go with the "it fights worse than a juggernaut", because those ar emodels with very different roles, but found something in a similar faction in a similar role: the Circle Warpwolf Stalker. Circle and Legion both tend towards the mobility/shennanigans type of play and both have warbeasts, not jacks. The Warpwolf Stalker is 19pts, and the Circle standard choice for something to rush in and kill heavies. So how do we compare to a carnivean for example? Defensive: Carni = DEF 11 "insignificant", ARM 18 "heavy", HP 30 Warpwolf = DEF 14 "you better boost to hit", ARM 17 (heavy -1), HP 27 Offensive: Carni= MAT 6, 2 pow 16, 1 pow 18 Warpwolf (warping strength, no primal)= MAT 6, 1 pow 16, 1 pow 18 Threat: Carni = SPD 5 + 1" melee = 9" charge Warpwolf= SPD 6 + 2" melee = 11" charge Extra: Carni: Assault Spray, Eyeless Sight, Spiny growth animus Stalker: Prowl, Berserk, Regeneration, Lightning Strike animus I think we can agree the Stalker is more mobile and faster. For defense, I think the Stalker is also superior: it has 3 less boxes and 1 less ARM, but it DEF is highly relevant, forcing boosts or missed attacks, while the carnivean is hit easily. Against shooting, prowl can be very helpful to get up the board safe, while spiny growth is also a good protection against shooting, but reduces mobility further (no runs) and is very epxensive fury wise (trample + spiny is already 3 fury). For offense, the Carnivean is superior versus heavies, with 1 additional pow 16 attack at the same MAT + a potential assault spray. This might be enough to kill the last 4 boxes on some heavy, but is also not crazy strong. The Stalker has the option to choose to berserk, making it also a threat against infantry (basically scythean included  ) Overall, it seems the carni is meant to be a beefier, slower beast with higher DMG output compared to the stalker, but I would actually consider the Stalker to be more survivable thanks to prowl and relevant DEF over 1 ARM. Overall, I feel the Carnivean is maybe slightly lacking compared to the Stalker, and +1 ARM would actually go with making it the beefy brother of the stalker, with reduced SPD and more DMG. Of course, as soon as primal comes into play, I would prefer the stalker over a carnivean any day That being said, beign tanky is not really the legion style, so maybe giving them back their SPD 6 to increase threat and make them easier to deliver would be a better option. |
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Post by snotling on Oct 10, 2017 15:11:32 GMT
So most people agree they have to be made worth their points or made cheaper.
Cheaper will happen or not, nothing much to diskuss here.
So how do we make them worth playing.
Offense is fine. Not much we cant kill.
Spd6 would be great, but i hope they keep that for a heavy bephilim chassis.
In the fluff, they are depicted as taking wounds, but not dying. Not having the highest arm. Of course pp qould have to decouple: tough model, high arm, high number of hutpoints. Keep the stats at 11/18. But give them six more wounds. Better or worse as arm19, depending on the incoming attack. But way more befitting of THE heavy warbeasts in this game.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 10, 2017 16:40:04 GMT
What about something like hyper regeneration? That would give them pseudo ARM19-21 except for the killing blow.
And for animus, would swapping +2ARM + d3 damage for Carapace+Unyielding be too strong?
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 10, 2017 17:17:49 GMT
What about something like hyper regeneration? That would give them pseudo ARM19-21 except for the killing blow. And for animus, would swapping +2ARM + d3 damage for Carapace+Unyielding be too strong? I feel like hyper regeneration needs to stay a typhon thing. Snacking for the whole chassis on the other hand I could see (imagine a scythean with snacking lol). Carapace would probably be too strong, especially for our warlocks. Unyielding isn't too bad, however coupled with carapace seems like a downgrade as once the enemy gets into melee, you lose two armor. And, 9/10, the melee weapons are going to be stronger. You'd be surprised how good spiny growth on a warlock is against enemy melee attacks. I had a game where the enemy warlock went for the assassination, failed to kill because kryssa was arm 18, and kryssa was left only with clean up because the enemy was half dead from spiny growth damage. |
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Oct 10, 2017 17:30:07 GMT
I feel spiny growth is okay, but the cost should go down to 1. For me, cost 2 is a relict from the time when it was not range self, to ensure we would not give it out to everybody. Now that it is range self, cost 1 should do.
I also find it hard ot use on Warlocks with cost 2, as you give up 2 transfers for 2 ARM, when most our warlocks only survive about 2-3 actual hits anyway. I only cast spiny with thagrosh for free, or when I need to dump fury anyway.
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Post by rhonlore on Oct 10, 2017 18:52:15 GMT
I had a game where the enemy warlock went for the assassination, failed to kill because kryssa was arm 18, and kryssa was left only with clean up because the enemy was half dead from spiny growth damage. Warlocks are warriors and don't suffer Spiny Growth damage  |
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