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Post by tiberius on Nov 29, 2017 11:29:10 GMT
This is a wild thread and a great read! I wonder if we can do something similar for Skorne. In the Goreshade2 list with Nyss, do you think a version with Croe's (to take advantage of Abyssal Gate) makes any sense? Shame it can't be used with casters but it seems like it could do really awful things to heavies--a poor mans Scaverous, but with other nice tech. Nice catch and thinking outside the box. Croe's could take advantage of an abyssal gate target as much as a telekinesis target. Try it out and let us know how it goes.
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Post by tiberius on Nov 29, 2017 11:30:11 GMT
Thanks, it is a bit more work than I intended to do, but it is kind of fun to break down the lists and the themes. If anyone knows how to do forum coding and can make a table of contents and keep that up, or show me how and I can put it in the first post, for people to find the warcaster they want to read about. The thing I overlooked here was usability of this thread. I should have made a different thread for each caster. When you click the arrow next to the cog at the top right of every post, you can choose "link to post", select the URL you want based on your needs and copy it. Then, in de BBCode view, you can use the url tag like this [ url="your link"]your text [/url] (without the space) and it will look like this: Asphyxious 1, The Ghost FleetCould do something like: Iron Lich Asphyxious: [/quote][/p]
Thanks Gamingdevil, that helps a lot, I will give it a shot when I get some time and see how it goes.
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Post by tiberius on Nov 30, 2017 11:46:19 GMT
Captain Aiakos - Black Industries
Even with all the focus efficiency and support that this theme can give, you have to pick and choose between that support and warjacks that need fed by a 6 focus caster that wants to cast 2-3 spells every round and mix it up in combat. Again, Aiakos can't do everything so you need to choose how you want to play him and the focus of the list. I went jack heavy/assassination with this list because I love colossals and I wanted the free arc nodes. With Carapace on your heavies and the +2" to the deployment zone, despite not having a lot of models, you have powerful ones that are surprisingly resilient and can get a lot of work done under carnage.
Captain Aiakos - The withershadow Combine - Kraken - Harrower - Reaper - Nightwretch x 2 (free) Iron Lich Overseer - Leviathan Warwitch Siren Gundrun the Wanderer
So here we see my basic game plan of get an arc node close enough for a White Squall onto their warcaster, knock them down and light them up with a plethora (of piñatas!) of gun shots from your colossal, leviathan, withershadow combine spells, harrower if necessary.
The harrower under carnage is very accurate into infantry and can clear a large area with 2" reach and thresher. With the feat and assail, it has a very long threat range (5 + 5 + 3 + 2) but needs to attack enemies within 12" of Aiakos if you want the +2 to hit, and then gets quick work if it kills everything in its melee. It can no longer spend souls to boost or buy additional attacks, but it can convert those souls to focus on its next turn, or spend one for a mortifier wraith shot that ignores line of sight/concealment/cover and fully boosts the RNG 11 POW 12 3" AOE shot. Even the blast damage is boosted with wraith shot.
I am probably putting darkshroud on the kraken as that will be my centerpiece and expect to see a lot of heavy resistance. The P+S 19 + darkshroud + any corpse tokens will be able to handle any heavy threats that come to it. Carnage will help it hit as Aiakos will most likely be hiding behind it. The kraken is a great long range gun boat with a very potent punch in melee. It has kill shot if you manage to kill something in melee and as a colossal, it doesn't care if its still engaged, unlike the harrower.
Gundrun the Wanderer is a tough berserking drunk ogrun. He advance deploys and has pathfinder, a 2" reach weapon with P+S 15 and has a lot of survivability as in the first time he is disabled in a game, he is knocked down (has feign death) and is fully healed back up. So he needs to be killed twice. He is MAT 7 so is fairly accurate and can hurt multiwound infantry pretty well. He would also make a good target for dark shroud. He will probably be the speed bump to the kraken, though a better use for him will probably be helping out the harrower deal with jamming units and models.
There are a lot of warjacks that want focus so at least one warwitch siren is very useful with her empower ability to remove disruption and give a free focus. She also has a pretty inaccurate melee attack that causes shadow bind on a 2" reach stick, great to force a non-reach warjack to spend focus to shake it off. She can also venom with magic ability 6, and the continuous corrosion effect is great against single wound infantry if she can hit. Carnage only affects melee attacks, not spell attack rolls.
This list would probably be better served dropping the reaper and adding a screening unit like Cephalyx and possibly dropping Gundrun, as fun as he is, and putting in a shrike or two. Overall, you can build a very effective assassination module with this theme and it brings a lot of support that Aiakos wants.
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Post by tiberius on Nov 30, 2017 13:05:38 GMT
Captain Aiakos - Scourge of the Broken Coast
Here Aiakos can mix it up with a very accurate and fast army whose only real issue is usually armor cracking. Though with the right warjack selection, mercenary selection and proper placement of upkeeps, that shouldn't be much of a problem either. Aiakos will run a very fast list with a lot of knockdown tech and your opponent should be forced onto their own side of the board, especially if you are going first.
Captain Aiakos - Harrower - Leviathan - Stalker x 2 - Deathripper x 2 Satyxis Raider Captain Gorman Di Wulfe Satyxis Blood Witches + hag Satyxis gun slingers Satyxis Raiders + sea witch
This army excels against infantry spam, recursion themes (since the satyxis now get take down instead of pathfinder), and ranged heavy armies. You should be able to take the board and scenario pretty easily between ambushing blood witches and really fast satyxis raiders. Warjack with Assail and Aiakos's feat can get up the board very quickly and force your opponent back away from scenario.
This army has a lot of knock down tech between the innate knock down of the satyxis raider captain, the critical knockdown that every satyxis unit has, head butts from the stalkers, slams from the heavies, or an arc'ed white squall into the opponents warcaster. This army also brings a significant ranged presence with both the harrower and the leviathan and the various pistols and ranged weapons throughout the lists. Satyxis gun slingers, sea witch and the raider captain all have guns and love to shoot knocked down guys.
Against a jack heavy list, feedback is a legitmate way to soften up the opposing warcaster. Between Gorman Di Wulfe's rust bomb, good application of dark shroud and charging chain weapon satyxis with gang, you should be able to do significant damage to warjacks. Also, there is the option of scoring the knockdown and hitting it with a blind bomb from Gorman to pretty well neuter the target the following turn. Sure, they can shake both of those effects off, for a focus a piece, leaving them with a max of 1 focus, which if its a warjack, they are probably needing to boost to hit a satyxis anyhow.
The leviathan and harrower can both be pretty focus hungry, especially the leviathan. Unfortunately this theme doesn't give access to any focus support, but a leviathan with all the knock down tech is too good to pass up and gets its D3 shots regardless of focus. Its just a matter of how many shots are you boosting damage on.
The harrower is probably your assail target and under carnage can kill a lot of stuff with its 2" reach thresher. After getting in a few good kills, it will be able to fuel itself on soul tokens.
The stalkers make really good assassins and are very mobile under Aiakos. They can make good assail targets, mix it up on a flank and then leap into the back ranks and take out support or head butt down the warcaster/warlock as needed. It is almost impossible to tie them up without actually killing them or knocking out their movement system or cortex. They are hard to hit with a DEF of 15 and innate stealth.
While Aiakos would love to have some focus support and help, this theme runs very well with him.
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Post by tiberius on Nov 30, 2017 13:55:02 GMT
Captain Aiakos - Slaughter Fleet Raiders
This is Aiakos's thematic theme as fluffwise, this is where he rides. Like most instances of Slaughter Fleet Raiders, your success really comes from being able to set up the kill with your warjacks gaining gang fighter. You have access to very mobile jacks and a very mobile warcaster. This list also has access to strong jamming units and ability to move other models for scenario purposes. i.e., you have access to a lot of drag, push and throw effects that can manipulate your own and your opponents models depending on your model choices.
Captain Aiakos - Leviathan - Nightwretch x 2 - Stalker x 2 General Gerlak Slaughterborn Ogrun Bokur Black Ogrun Boarding Party Bloodgorgers The Devils shadow Mutineers Cylena Raefyll and the Nyss Hunters
I went light on the warjacks and heavy with assassination and scenario potential. The stalkers and Aiakos all have the ability to move fast and leap. They cannot leap if they charge or use a power attack, as it requires a normal movement to allow the activation, but being able to place yourself completely within 5" of your current location is great. You will probably have to move Aiakos in first to get gang fighter going, or alternatively, just line up a white squall spell from an arc node - which is a lot safer. If that is the case, you need to get a different warrior model in your faction (has to be friendly faction - so leaves out the ogrun bokur and the nyss hunters) to trigger gang fighter. The stalkers can leap in and head butt if necessary, and proceed to give it two initial attacks that will be autohitting (or MAT 9 if necessary) and P+S 14 (16 if you have dark shroud applied properly) with grievous wounds. Great assassination run.
Backup would be the strong ranged presence the leviathan, Zira from the Devils Shadow Mutineers, and the Nyss hunters bring. The leviathan gets D3 initial shots at RNG 13 and POW 13 (with more damage for larger bases) and can reliably hit knocked down targets. Zira is an accurate ranged weapon master with two initial POW 10 attacks. The Nyss hunters are a 10 man unit with RNG 12 POW 10 and combined ranged attack. Remember that you cannot combined ranged attack something that is in melee. They are probably your bet if you hit it with white squall and need something to get in range and shoot it. They are fast and accurate and have a sizable range on their bows. The Nyss can also mix it up well in melee with weapon master melee attacks.
Dark Shroud on General Gerlak Slaughterborn and under Carnage (+2 to hit against enemy models in Aiakos's control area) allow the general to pretty much kill and move through whatever he wants. His damage output and reliability to hit is increased and this applies to the bloodgorgers as well, pretty much fixing all their problems. Though dark shroud can only be put on a single model, so its effects are limited. It can be swapped by Aiakos. But then something would be without carnage. Order of activation issues! Regardless, you can decide who needs what more, typically the to-hit is more important than the damage for the things the bloodgorgers will be going after.
The ogrun bokur is shield guard for Aiakos (or even Cylena of the Nyss if you run that way). He is also a very accurate and hard hitting slam bot. On a medium base, he will be able to slam heavies but only half the distance. It still knocks them down, potentially out of a zone and could collateral damage and knock down whatever is behind them. Aside from that, he hits like a heavy warjack with multiple initial weapons if he stays within his client range, gaining an additional +2 to hit and damage. He is pretty hardy and takes a concentrated effort to remove at 18 ARM and 8 boxes plus tough.
Overall, the list provides Aiakos with a lot of tools that he can really make better to move his game plan along. He would like some additional support but really likes the drag, slamming and knockdown tools available. And gang fighter on warjacks is always a boon.
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Post by tiberius on Nov 30, 2017 18:36:26 GMT
Warwitch Deneghra - Ghost Fleet
Our original Battlebox Caster and our most recently nerfed caster. Deneghra defined what cryx playstyle was as the queen of debuffs. She could single handedly turn whatever your opponents brought into vulnerable lumps of metal or meat for the rest of your army that had trouble with retaliation because their offensive stats as well as their defensive stats are debuffed from her feat and upkeep spells. Well her upkeep spells have remained the same, but her feat has been nerfed twice now. Also, her best assassination spell has been taken away and replaced with another spell that has a similar purpose but is no where near as reliable. Also, her warjack points were reduced from 28 to 25. Lets break her down.
Her statline isn't too bad for a fast hard to hit Cryx warcaster. Its very similar to Pirate Queen Skarre, only not as good at melee. SPD 7, MAT 5, DEF 16 and ARM 14, but she does have parry and stealth innately so chances are you are safe at range and if you do manage to survive getting into melee, you can escape pretty easily without worrying about free strikes. She has a single melee attack with a 2" reach and P+S 12, that gives a model hit Shadow Bind. That means they get -3 DEF and cannot advance for one round except to change facing. This is a shakable effect but can lock non-reach guys safely in place who do not have access to focus or fury for shaking.
She can collect souls up to 2" away and convert them to focus the following round. You should not be close enough to use this typically and if you are, something has probably gone horribly wrong.
She has a really fantastic spell list that can cripple an enemy force that cannot deal with enemy upkeeps. Get it? Cripple? Crippling Grasp is a 3 cost, range 8 offensive upkeep that gives an enemy model or unit -2 SPD, STR, DEF and ARM. MKII to MKIII changes made it that a reduction in speed no longer stops running or charges, but it used to. That just means that while she does reduce the threat range of things she crippling grasps, they are not extremely neutered. But overall, still a fantastic upkeep that increases the damage dealing capabilities and reliability of all of your army's attacks against the targets.
Her other upkeep is parasite and like Crippling Grasp, is an offensive upkeep that reduces the target model/unit's armor by 3 and provides Deneghra with a +1 ARM. This is great to make a big damage swing for your normally pillow fisted jacks and troops. Cryx infantry (with the exception of banes, and they still appreciate them) are built to have these debuffs in place.
Deneghra has 3 offensive spells, two of which are damaging and the other is control shenanigans. First is Dark Seduction, the 4 cost RNG 8 non-damaging spell you will most likely never cast. You take control of target enemy non-warcaster/warlock warrior model, make a full advance with it and make one basic attack. It cannot be targeted by free strikes during this movement. It has its uses, especially in scenario play, moving that solo out of the zone or what not, or turning around something and whacking something else, moving shield walls apart, that sort of thing. There are a lot of applications, it can be powerful, but it costs you 4 focus when you could just as easily debuff and kill the target for cheaper.
Her second attack spell is Venom, the 8" corrosion spray that applies the corrosion continuous effect. Great for clearing out infantry and single wound troops. Under her debuffs, the POW 10 spray may even do some damage to heavier targets, but probably not much. It is more of a troop clearing area effect, more accurate by 1 than a warwitch siren.
Her third attack spell used to be scourge which was an automatic knockdown AOE spell that made her assassination game very strong. That spell has changed to one called Black Talons, where on a critical hit of the 3" AOE RNG 10 POW 12 spell (cost 3), the models hit become shadow bound. Just like her melee attack, this applies -3 DEF and they cannot advance except to change facing. If you hit that crit, it is very useful to set up an assassination or lock enemies out of zones...but its unreliable as you will probably have to boost to hit the crit reliably and its still no guarantee. I mean I can roll double 1's like a champ, but that doesn't help me hit. This is shakable by things with focus or fury. But it costs resources to do so.
Her final spell is ghost walk. It allows target model/unit to ignore terrain and free strikes. Very useful spell unless you are running dark host and then its just redundant because all the troops in that theme have ghostly already.
Her feat is one of the most powerful feats in the game and that is after being hit with a nerf. It provides a debuff to all enemy models in her control area in the form of -2 to SPD, STR, MAT, RAT, DEF and ARM. It used to also prevent charging, running and special attacks, but that part was removed to allow people the illusion that they are not completely screwed.
So what does Deneghra want? Obviously she is a strong spell caster with FOC 7 and a lot of good attack spells. Anything that gives her a free upkeep, spell slaves, rerolls, etc are all great. Arc nodes are mandatory and you will want at least 2 of any flavor. She used to prefer the ranged ones for her pop and drop as they could contribute after the target is knocked down, but really, any flavor is fine. She is not doing the heavy lifting of killing all the opponents models so you need models in your army that will do the work. She will facilitate almost anything you take to be able to do that job, but its your choice to polish a turd to a stone or a stone to a gem.
Warwitch Deneghra - Leviathan - Nightwretch x 2 - Nightmare Captain Rengrave Pistol Wraiths x 2 Hellslinger Phantom Machine Wraith Revenant Crew (min) + 2 riflemen Revenant Crew (min) Revenant Cannon Crew Blackbane's Ghost Raiders
This list has 3 extra points because the warjack points have not been adjusted yet in warroom so I would probably downgrade a nightwretch to a deathripper and drop the machine wraith. Minimal impact to the list overall.
This list has a strong ranged presence and with Deneghra's debuffs providing a potential -4 DEF (-7 if you are super lucky with black talons) under crippling grasp and her feat, the list can just stand and shoot dead whatever your target was, preferably the warcaster or warlock that would also be suffering -4 ARM at the time. That accuracy and damage swing is hard to beat on the scale that she provides. The revenant pirates and the cannon crew suddenly go from bad/average RAT to elite status while the pistol wraiths hit double digits in accuracy. And if they cannot finish it off, you have incorporeal guys that can charge, Deneghra's other spells, Rengrave, the hellslinger phantom, a leviathan and a pair of night wretches. Even nightmare can get in there and finish up.
Nightmare is Deneghra's character slayer. It is expensive at 18 points but it is stealthed in her control area, has innate ghostly, has prey (+2 to hit and damage on a target of your choice chosen after deployment but before the first turn) and chain attack smash and grab for a free throw or head butt. It is also ARM 18 and MAT 8 and P+S 17 so a bit better than a slayer base stats. It lost its 2" reach from MKII which, had it kept that, it would totally be worth its high point cost in my opinion.
Anyhow, my play with Deneghra hasn't changed much and its usually about assassination. Debuff your target and kill it. She can play scenario very well with her ability to debuff speed with her feat and crippling grasp and lock targets in place with a lucky critical shadow bind. She can also swing attrition very well with her feat cutting relatiation of the opponents army to a minimum. -2 MAT and RAT is significant when trying to hit Cryx defenses.
Ghost Fleet play used to be defined by Deneghra and with her debuffs, it is still a very solid list and the recurring pirates keep up scenario pressure and give her turds to polish into stones and are good enough with her debuffs to remove enemy threats. The list has very little in the way of support for her casting however.
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Post by tiberius on Dec 1, 2017 15:12:19 GMT
Warwitch Deneghra - Infernal Machines
Deneghra is one of our premier turd polishers and this theme has a lot of turds she can polish. It also brings every option we have for warcaster support and self sufficient warjacks, a plethora of cheap spammable troops and a solid recursion sub-theme if that is what you are looking for. Overall, Infernal Machines can play almost any game you want, assassination, attrition or scenario, especially with Deneghra as she can swing things your way with her debuffs and powerful spells allowing your army to do their job of either holding ground, scalpeling out key models or just grinding out a win.
Warwitch Deneghra - The Withershadow Combine - Sepulcher - Nightwretch - Deathripper Aiakos Scourge of the Meredius - Stalker Bloat thrall Necrotech x 2 Mechanithralls + 2 Brutes Bile Thralls (min) + Skarlok commander Necrosurgeon
Here is my attempt at a list with both assassination and attrition elements. You have the full mechanithrall recursion boat with the necrosurgeon and the sepulcher, capable of putting back out up to 6 destroyed mechanithralls for 3 mechanithralls and a brute per round if you can collect the corpses. Mechanithralls MAT 5 is not that big of a drawback under deneghra's debuffs as it effectively makes them MAT 7-9 and with +2-4 damage on a swing, making them hit way above their weight class and cost. The brutes just get silly with accuracy and damage.
The sepulcher is a great assassination tool once its target is debuffed sufficiently such that its RAT 5 can hit reliably. With a -4 swing on DEF, any warcaster is going to have a bad day with a potential critical paralysis cannon at RNG 13, and 2 D3 initial shot guns that are very similar in damage output to a leviathan (POW 13 and +1 damage for medium bases, +2 damage for large bases). Deneghra can give a +4 or +5 damage swing depending on the debuff and her feat, making potential POW 20 shots from the side cannons at heavies and huge based models.
Aiakos takes some of the jack burden for himself but I could only afford one stalker as I wanted some ranged support in the form of a bloat thrall and two necrotechs to follow around the sepulcher and keep it in the game. Aiakos is a great assassination module or solo hunter and while they really don't need debuffs to do their job, they appreciate the increase to damage they can deal, putting the stalker's P+S 12 up to something closer to P+S 16 for each attack.
The bloat's accuracy will be increased greatly under the debuffs and a 4" AOE that causes continuous corrosion is great for eliminating single wound infantry. Infantry units should not be a challenge for this list with a bloat and easy access to arc'ed venom or a spell slaved venom from the withershadow combine. The bile thralls are running around too and if the debuffs are insufficient for their RAT 3 to hit, they can just purge. The necrosurgeon can replenish bile thralls with corpse tokens they collect from mechanithralls or enemy models.
The withershadow combine gives all the support that Deneghra wants with a free upkeep, a free offensive spell and a reroll to something, probably the Sepulcher fishing for that Critical Paralysis.
Overall, it seems like a fun list that covers a lot of bases from armor cracking to infantry shredding to scenario play. This theme goes very well with Deneghra and provides her with support and the style of models she wants.
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Dec 2, 2017 22:11:23 GMT
Tiberius, I continue to enjoy your posts. I wanted to add something to what you’ve said about Aiakos2, however. I have enjoyed playing this caster, but as you note he has the potential to do a lot of things, but due to his low FOCUS stat, he really can’t do more than 1-2 of those things per turn, especially if he wants to give out any focus to his ‘jacks. For example, if he wants to cast Stranglehold, he often wants to boost to hit (when putting it on ‘jacks/beasts with DEF 12) and needs to boost damage. That makes it a 4 cost spell for him, which blows most of his stack. So, his need for FOCUS efficiency means he really likes things like the Warwitch Sirens (to help Empower his ‘jacks) and spellslaves that can cast his spells. Maelovous (in Withershadow Combine) and Deathjack both are Magic Ability 7, so they are better at casting Aiakos’ spells than he is. I love having them in lists with him.
As far as Deathjack, you didn’t sell him enough. Not only is he Magic Ability 7, which means he needs to boost to hit with Aiakos’ spells less often than Aiakos does, but he also brings 3 FOCUS of his own to cast those spells. That’s one extra White Squall per turn. And, unlike Maelovous and other spellslaves, Deathjack can boost his spell casting. So, other than being unable to arc spells, Deathjack is better at casting Aiakos’ spells. Plus, Deathjack loves Assail. While you can get Kharybdis up to a 17” threat under feat with Assail, Deathjack still gets to a fantastic 15” threat under feat (charge or trample). That’s very scary, when you consider you can get him there with 5 FOCUS! He really likes that threat extension.
I’d also add that Stalkers really love Aiakos’ feat. Threatening 16” (SPD 7” + 3” for feat + 5” leap + 1” reach) with a couple of Stalkers can be scary for some lists. They are also great targets for Scything Touch, sicne they can deliver it where you want it in most cases. The other thing I like about them is that they have Pathfinder, which helps since terrain is something my Aiakos2 lists struggle with (he’s not a Ghostwalk caster and the lists I run with him don’t bring much Ghostly/Pathfinder).
That said, I think the best themes for Aiakos2 are Infernal Machines and Black Industries. You can get the Withershadow Combine and Deathjack in both. IM allows you to bring Mechanithralls with Brutes that can serve as shield guards for Aiakos, which he really needs due to his squishyness (15/15 with 15 boxes and no stealth or other defensive traits). BI with an Inflictor as a shield guard getting +4 ARM vs. ranged also works well, and Deathjack loves +4 ARM vs. ranged when he’s standing back and being a spellslinger (with 11” range Strangleholds and 8” range White Squalls).
Here are two lists I’ve had fun running with him:
War Room Army
Cryx - Aiakos2 Infernal Machines with Stalkers
Theme: Infernal Machines 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Captain Aiakos - WJ: +29 - The Withershadow Combine - Maelovus, Admonia & Tremulus: 9 - Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Kharybdis - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Deathjack - PC: 23 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Stalker - PC: 8 - Stalker - PC: 8
Hellslinger Phantom - PC: 7 Warwitch Siren - PC: 0 Warwitch Siren - PC: 4
Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2 - Brute Thrall - PC: 2
THEME: Infernal Machines ---
GENERATED : 12/02/2017 14:01:57 BUILD ID : 2055.17-11-21
War Room Army
Cryx - Aiakos2 Flying Dutchman Black Industries
Theme: Black Industries 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Fuel Cache - Steamroller Objective
Captain Aiakos - WJ: +29 - The Withershadow Combine - Maelovus, Admonia & Tremulus: 9 - Deathjack - PC: 23 (Battlegroup Points Used: 23) - Kharybdis - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Inflictor - PC: 13 - Stalker - PC: 8 - Ripjaw - PC: 0 - Ripjaw - PC: 0
Warwitch Siren - PC: 4 Warwitch Siren - PC: 4 Machine Wraith - PC: 2 Machine Wraith - PC: 2 Lord Rockbottom - PC: 4
Cephalyx Overlords - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 The Devil's Shadow Mutineers - Mar, Morland, & Zira: 8
THEME: Black Industries ---
GENERATED : 12/02/2017 14:07:11 BUILD ID : 2055.17-11-21
The BI list is still under development. I’m struggling with it in SR17 since you need infantry to hold circles. Devil’s Shadow Mutineers have recursion to help with that and Stealth on the Overlords helps them survive. Ambushing Mechanithralls helps in that regard for IM. DSM and Overlords are better at clearing infantry than Mechanithralls, however. Perhaps I should switch a Ripjaw for a Shrike in the BI list to give more infantry clearing. Thoughts and/or advice are always appreciated.
Those are some of my thoughts to add to your great advice on a fun caster.
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Post by tiberius on Dec 4, 2017 12:02:08 GMT
Great writeup Grimolf, thank you for your insights on Aiakos. As I said, I have very little play experience with him as mine is still on the painting table. I agree that those are probably his best themes as those bring the spell support he wants and allows him to be a bit more free with his focus, or keep a bit more of it.
I have always felt that he needs one arc node to distribute his upkeeps. You have enough spell slaves to cast his offensive spells for him as required, and the arc node can double up on that duty to when you are ready for a knockdown assassination with white squall and a feated assailed deathjack. What could you drop? Not sure, I would drop a stalker before dropping the arc node personally, though the stalkers are great and do a lot of work. Realistically the stalkers and the hellslinger are your infantry removal.
You are right about the black industries list, you probably don't need 2 ripjaws and a shrike is a great self sufficient jack that doesn't need focus to do its job, where a ripjaw wants one for powerful attack. And a ripjaw is more of an armor cracker than an infantry removal piece.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Dec 5, 2017 2:43:37 GMT
Good talks guys! I agree with Grimolf about the DJ and Aiakos. I've never played A2, but I actually don't even want to think about him without DJ and WSC. Multiple strangleholds can be real nice.
Only problem I see is A2 seems to like Kraken. DJ+Kraken is a huge chunk.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 5, 2017 8:44:48 GMT
I like this with Aiakos in IM, though I can see the value of the Hellslinger Phantom. CID Kharybdis being slightly cheaper means I can get to 40 points of thralls. conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0wgz1wkw1f1h0tf0f02B2Bi01Ki11KdQ1F1FCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Aiakos 2) Captain Aiakos [+29] - Deathjack [23] - Kharybdis [17] - Nightwretch [7] - Stalker [8] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Soul Trapper [1] Soul Trapper [1] Warwitch Siren [0(4)] Warwitch Siren [0(4)] Mechanithralls (min) [6] - Brute Thrall (3) [6] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Brute Thrall (3) [6] - Skarlock Commander [3] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [4] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [4] marke The Kraken is nice with him, but Kharybdis has the same threat melee threat range. If the choice is between Deathjack and Kraken, I know who I would pick. (answer above )
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Post by tiberius on Dec 5, 2017 18:41:48 GMT
Warwitch Deneghra - Dark Host
So what is there to say about a theme of elite troops with a warcaster than can debuff entire enemy forces in one go with multiple upkeeps and a powerful feat? I guess if you want to feel like a good player, this is the match up for you because it will be like a steam roller of banes over whatever it is your opponent decides to put in front of them. Banes don't need much help in the damage department but now they are going to be P+S 15-16 weapon masters with Dark shroud, tough and auto-standing up if they do make a tough roll. Bane knights are really hard to remove under the feat thanks to the -2 MAT and RAT from the feat and their innate resistance to charges and higher than average armor for single wound infantry. Deneghra solves the one problem that arguably banes have, and that is an average MAT of 6. Under crippling grasp, she gives them an effective +2 to hit against the debuffed target and her feat gives another +2 to hit to targets in range.
Warwitch Deneghra - Skarlock Thrall - Desecrator - Nightwretch x 2 - Nightmare Bane Lord Tartarus Machine Wraith Bane Knights Bane Riders Bane Warriors + CA
Deneghra appreciates focus efficient jacks and in this theme, the Desecrator is one of the most focus efficient she can choose thanks to Accumulator: Bane giving the warjack a free focus on its activation if it is near a bane model. That plus her power up free focus, and its almost full every round. It brings some solid infantry removal capabilities with its scather and can hit really hard and accurately when taking into account the debuffs.
The skarlock thrall brings some additional focus efficiency in the form of a free attack spell every round, or a free ghost walk, not that much in this list needs it as everything pretty much has pathfinder, ghostly and already have prowl from theme benefits. So a free venom or black talons is pretty solid unless you need to give deneghra herself ghostly.
Nightmare is another great, yet expensive warjack with stealth, ghostly, and prey. It has better than average stats over the lowly slayer with harder hitting claws, better armor and a better MAT. It does like to have lots of focus though so may be a power sink for Deneghra, but can definitely be worth it and will get work done given the chance.
All the banes are solid hitters and with Deneghra's help will hit accurately. Timed right, Deneghra's feat will be both devastating to the front lines of your opponent and reduce reprisal significantly. In addition, Banes have innate ghostly so can just circumvent the front line if they choose by going between models and ignoring free strikes if they have a path to do so. You can charge in with bane riders from a flank, kill stuff, reposition out of the way, charge in with the warriors, and then charge in with the bane knights with reach going between the warriors to what is left.
Overall, most warcasters love the bane theme as the banes do a lot of heavy lifting. They deliver themselves with prowl and use of terrain and will kill pretty much anything they touch.
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Post by tiberius on Dec 7, 2017 11:58:21 GMT
Warwitch Deneghra - Black Industries
This theme rewards you for playing a lot of warjacks in the form of free bone jacks (of cost 7 pts or less) for every 30 pts spent. It also provides any heavy warjacks you take with Carapace, +4 ARM vs ranged and free strikes. And your deployment zone is increased by 2". All very solid for getting your already pretty fast warjacks up the field, and as Deneghra doesn't have any special spells or tech to help deliver them, if you want to run a jack heavy list with Deneghra, this is probably the theme for you.
Warwitch Deneghra - The Withershadow Combine - Deathjack - Nightwretch x 2 Iron Lich Overseer - Seether Aiakos, Scourge of Meredius - Stalker x 2 Warwitch Siren Machine Wraith Cephalyx Mind Slaver and Drudges Cephalyx Overlords
Deneghra doesn't care if the jacks are in her battlegroup or not. Black Industries, like infernal machines, gives access to our jack marshall and our Journeyman Warcaster so it alleviates the focus spending burden from Deneghra, freeing her up to do debuffs and attack spells. You also have access to the withershadow combine and deathjack for a free upkeep and two different sources of free attack spell or utility spell castings (ghost walk, venom or Black Talons).
Usually I like to have a strong ranged presence with Deneghra, but I built this list more as a melee attrition list, giving a Seether to the Iron Lich Overseer, who can give it a +4 damage swing before deneghra's debuffs are involved. That may be a bit overkill but I would love to live the dream of seeing it one round a colossal or something with +9 damage and 5 attacks. Charges for free, crush gives it +2 damage, dark shroud drive gives the colossal -2 ARM, parasite can give the colossal -3 ARM, the withering feat can give -2 ARM and -2 DEF, so the Seether is hitting a colossal or whoever at MAT 10, P+S 26...or MAT 12 P+S 25 if you would rather crippling grasp...that seems pretty good.
Deathjack is just as accurate and can get a lot more attacks with his upper limit of 5 focus, 3 of which are free any given turn. He will be missing out on the dark shroud and crush damage buffs unless he is running with the seether, then he can share in the targets debuff from dark shroud, but that is hardly necessary. The Deathjack can self heal with snacking (reminder this removes from play the model, so you don't generate souls or corpses if you are using those for something), advance deploys so you can pick your matchups, casts spells which means it can give itself ghost walk, and is a really focus efficient beater.
Aiakos and a pair of stalkers are a great, fast, mobile, assassination module that can take a flank, and your opponent will be very hard pressed to tie them down and keep them from the back ranks where they can do the most damage. With leap on all these models and Aiakos feeding them himself, they take no support from Deneghra to run effectively, and any debuffs she can provide will increase their damage output significantly.
The drudge screening unit is more of a speed bump to keep things away from Deneghra, but under her debuffs, they can get a lot of work done despite their less than average stats. They are a cheap throw away unit, but if they are hitting with +2-+4 MAT and +2-+5 STR, then they are putting out some damage, accurately. The overlords are great infantry clearers as each of this three man unit has an 8" spray and is fairly accurate without debuffs. They also don't need line of sight to do the sprays so can use terrain to their advantage to attrition out your opponent.
Overall, while at first it seems like there are better themes for Deneghra, this looks to be a really fun and effective/efficient theme for her.
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Post by tiberius on Dec 7, 2017 15:17:15 GMT
Warwitch Deneghra - Scourge of the Broken Coast
This theme is our living satyxis theme that gives us a fast, high defense group of infantry that can move up the board and engage our opponent, most cases getting us the alpha strike. The theme grants take down for the satyxis (I think now instead of pathfinder for everyone, which admittedly was very strong), and gives a unit of satyxis blood witches ambush. For a fast unit that can remove tough, cause grevious wounds, and have some other utility abilities, this is really powerful to get them behind enemy lines and really soften up or take out support. Under Deneghra, your normally not-very-hard hitting satyxis now can swing like champs with +4 to +5 damage on a key turn and +2 to +3 damage on most other turns - not including their own gang bonus.
Warwitch Deneghra - Nightmare - Ripjaw x 2 - Scavenger x 2 Satyxis Raider Captain Wrongeye - Snapjaw Satyxis Bloodwitches + hag Satyxis Gunslingers Satyxis Raiders + Sea Witch
Under Deneghra, the entire list becomes armor cracking and accurate enough to hit higher defenses. The high defenses are typically not a problem for Satyxis as they all have access to gang or innately high MAT like the raider captain. Nightmare can hit very hard and is fairly mobile with access to innate ghostly and closing is typically not a problem with his bond giving him stealth in Deneghra's control area. Against his prey and if it is debuffed that turn, he will be hitting at +4-+5 or even higher damage and/or accuracy against that model/unit.
Wrongeye and Snapjaw are great with this theme as they make the innately high defense satyxis really hard to hit with starcrossed. That works really well with Deneghra's DEF 16 as well. If you run them close to her, she can benefit from that and they benefit from the debuffs she puts out, helping Snapjaw wreck heavies or a group of troops. Snapjaw's main weakness is typically his accuracy and under Deneghra's feat or against a crippling grasped foe, he can hit very reliably, and he already hits very hard.
I was unsure about putting in the two scavengers into Denegra's battlegroup as you may be better served with another heavy, but then I remembered back to one of Deneghra's theme forces in MKII which was pretty much all bone jacks, with so many threat angles it was hard for opponents to avoid the assassination. In this list, which would probably be a warmachine drop for me, I would use the raiders to feedback some damage onto the opposing warcaster and ghostly up the pair of loaded scavengers and have them charge a feated target, getting P+S 11 + debuffs + 4D6 against the target and then can boost or buy attacks as needed. With two of them at naturally MAT 7, it will be hard to avoid and they should be able to get it done. If not, your satyxis should be able to mop up or finish the job.
The gun slingers add some ranged support and can do some real damage against debuffed opponents. Their POW 10's turn into POW 14-15 very easily and they are already fairly accurate.
Overall, while lacking in support for Deneghra, its a solid theme with self sufficient units that Deneghra makes even better.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 7, 2017 15:46:14 GMT
Seeing as you're already including CID changes in your write-ups, don't forget about Misery Cages. They're great for a lot of our spell slingers.
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