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Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 26, 2017 12:56:02 GMT
I don’t understand from a fluff = game perspective how the Empress says ‘build me the best warjacks ever’ and we get one which is 58% more expensive than a Juggernaut, but has a worse cortex (lower MAT) and worse armor (ex Shield, but you have to look at it that way or you would just give a Shield to a Juggernaut). The Gun is the weakest of any jack artillery. I just...don’t...get it. Not to be a nit-picking jerk, but the Empress never said anything about the best warjack ever, she wanted one that would change the tide of the Motherland's ongoing wars. If you only look at it from a MAT/RAT and POW perspective, the Spriggan has some deficiencies compared to the Juggernaut. If you look at the whole package the Spriggan compares nicely, and it has a HUGE advantage with Bulldoze built into it - it doesn't matter what is between the Spriggan and the charge target, those things are getting shoved aside and that poor bastard is getting a war lance run through it. I haven't used Spriggans extensively, but I have always been relatively happy with how they perform (as over-priced as they are.) And yes, a charging Spriggan that has Bulldozed meatshield warrior models out of the way has won the game for me. The grenade launchers are not going to compare to the Destroyer's Bombard from a POW perspective. The true strength of the grenade launchers is in the mechanism that allows it to chose different types of ammo, but that got reduced when the Flash Bang grenades got eliminated. I’m looking at the whole package. Bulldoze is nice but It can be countered by a Savvy opponent. If bulldoze with a MAT 6 cortex was going to win wars then the existing devastation could do. Now bulldoze on a MAT 7 platform with Brutal Damage on the charge, and assault with ammo types, I could get down with that. Mat 6. Pow 18. Dumb guns. Nope.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 26, 2017 13:34:39 GMT
High Explosive on the grenade launchers would give him near-Behemoth levels of ranged damage output - arguably more since Behemoth needs focus and can lose Powerful Attack if the opponent scalpels out the S boxes. Well, obviously the smaller AOE and lower range means the Spriggan would be doing a lot less work than Behemoth even then, but still, I don't think High Explosive is very likely on those tiny little grenades. Perhaps POW 11 or 12 for POW 6 blast damage, and/or a slight range increase (either through RNG or Assault)? Sorry for shooting down* other people's ideas, just trying to manage expectations I suppose. * The pun was not intended, but I'm glad it's there.I think you make a good point - there are some things that PP will probably not agree to for one reason or another: High Explosive rule on the grenades - as cool as that would be I think PP would be concerned that it would turn the Spriggan from a melee warjack into a fire support warjack, something that goes against the background. Let's face it, if you had a warjack that cranked out two 10" range 3" AOE attacks that did POW 10 to everything in the AOE, would you charge with it? Range increase for the grenade launchers - this is something that I initially pushed for, but now that I think about it can't be supported because of the Targeting Flare rule which has range 10 written into it. If the range were to be increased then Torch and any other unit that has this special rule will get a range increase. Increase the base ARM from 19 to 20 or higher - keep in mind PP are roleplayers first, and since the Spriggan shares the same chassis as the Demolisher and Devastator if you increase the ARM of one they will probably feel obligated to increase the base ARM of the other two. Can a case be made to increase the total ARM of the Demolisher and Devastator to 24 or 25? I think they will resist this suggestion, but I could be wrong. Increase the MAT or RAT of the Spriggan - relatively the same argument as above for the ARM. Privateer Press' counter-argument is going to be that the War Lance has the Powerful Charge rule. (And Khador warjacks have always had crap for RAT.) I don't think improving the Spriggan by just simply increasing 1 or 2 of the fundamental stats will go very far with PP, because a lot of them are hemmed in by the the Demolisher and Devastator and some of them are restrained in other ways. I think we need to get more creative. I'm not saying don't talk about this stuff, or that any suggestions along these lines are wrong, I just don't think PP will be very receptive to them. What are some other, more creative ways that we can improve the Spriggan that will make it worth taking? Increase the POW of the Shield? Rename it to signify it as a big heavy piece of metal that will actually crush when it hits instead of "just another shield" and give it some power. Give the Grenade Launchers a third (or fourth? or fifth?) type of grenade? What does Khador need? A Knockdown grenade? A Blind grenade? What about grenades like what the Assault Kommandos have? Allow the grenade launchers to CRA with each other? Give the Spriggan Assault? In Mk1 the Spriggan was a trample-bot similar to the Gun Carriage with the Steam Roll rule. In Mk2 Steam Roll was replaced with Bulldoze. The Spriggan will need to keep Bulldoze to keep it similar to the Demolisher and Devastator, but would it be worthwhile to borrow rules from the Gun Carriage to allow it to trample as well? The Spriggan is definitely over-priced for what we get out of it, and the Grenade Launchers aren't exactly the best weapon. Instead of just tweeking some stats or just lowering the price, what can we do to the Spriggan that would make it a really nice piece of kit?
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Oct 26, 2017 13:47:21 GMT
if the spriggan's supposed to emulate the fighting style of mounted knights like the uhlans, it would be fun if the tip of the lance was explosive ala the uhlan solo, a 4'AoE on the charge target, it's situationally useful but i don't know if it makes it useful enough for its current point cost.
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 26, 2017 14:10:19 GMT
One that I would find quite fun, particularly if it had Dual Attack, would be for the Grenade Launchers to be ROF 3. There are three on each side, after all, and even though they're RAT4 P10's, being able to fire 6 would be hilarious. Not sure how it would interact with the Targeting Flares, though; 6 of them is probably overkill!
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Post by kerberos514 on Nov 14, 2017 12:51:00 GMT
What if the Spriggan would get a ability Charged Trample allows it to charge and trample in the same attack. Plowing through units and obstacles to reach its target. Give it a magic/blessed lance.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 14, 2017 13:55:07 GMT
While a Blessed lance has been right at the top of my personal wants list for a character Spriggan for years, I cannot imagine PP giving it to a non-character jack. Plus Ruin already has Dispel on his mace and Forgeseers give their marshaled jacks Blessed; a jack with a full-time Blessed weapon would be competing against both.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 14, 2017 19:00:24 GMT
What if the Spriggan would get a ability Charged Trample allows it to charge and trample in the same attack. Plowing through units and obstacles to reach its target. Give it a magic/blessed lance. I agree that giving the Spriggan the ability to trample while it charges would be good, as long as it doesn't lose Bulldoze. The rules for this trample while charging would then have to account for the Bulldoze ability not working on any targets that are trampled. I agree with Soul Samurai, I doubt PP would give the lance magic / blessed. While it would be handy, it would create competition and PP would have some explaining to do in the background story.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 14, 2017 19:41:26 GMT
We could always give it AP........ It's not that OP guys.....
But I'd be pretty happy if it gained Cavalry rules. I mean it's like a Uhlan on warjack legs.
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Post by Havock on Nov 14, 2017 23:03:40 GMT
Don't say that, PP will give it the lance rule as well.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 15, 2017 2:35:54 GMT
Don't say that, PP will give it the lance rule as well. (shudder)
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 15, 2017 8:37:15 GMT
C'Mon guys, how bad would a 19pt heavy with a variable melee range be?
/sarcasm
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Post by blindfury on Nov 18, 2017 11:57:18 GMT
I agree that the base stats are dependent on the chassis. I also do not have a problem with a pow 18 reach main weapon and a pow 14 backup. To make me take the big guy again PP has to balance the points investment with the utility—a calculation clearly not working in its favor right now. So, the question is, what do we want it to do? I see two potential jobs for the spriggan: 1. A high performance heavy with powerful abilities but a top tier cost. 2. A moderately high cost heavy that supports infantry by dealing with a variety of threats.
In case 1, I’m thinking something like armor piercing on the lance’s charge attacks, creeping barrage and flare on the grenades, and a point drop to at least 18. Even if the lance loses +2 on the charge, it is still a significant threat. On the rounds you are not charging it has multiple support options. In case 2, I would like to see the lance get critical knockdown and the grenades become rof d3+1 with high explosive. The points would need to come down to 16ish.
Both variants give me a reason to value the lance over a juggernaut’s axe in some situations. The grenades are useful options in a world where any ranged platform is going to be compared with behemoth and the destroyer.
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Post by Havock on Nov 18, 2017 22:29:43 GMT
AP is not going to happen, not in a PS18 weapon, period. It's ridiculus and honestly makes the discussion a joke.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 18, 2017 22:32:17 GMT
AP is not going to happen, not in a PS18 weapon, period. It's ridiculus and honestly makes the discussion a joke. Aww come on. Just imagine it under Sorscha2. They'd be removing Juggernauts on average rolls.
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Post by Havock on Nov 18, 2017 23:08:02 GMT
You can break colossals in half, easily doing 40+ damage in one poke. Pretty insane.
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