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Post by mcdermott on Oct 4, 2017 2:30:48 GMT
Ok, Redline for +2 strength, charging an arm 20 under sorcha2's feat Dice +10 +avg 10 on the charge, 40 total damage, scrapping any heavy and damn near ending most colossals in a single attack, buy and boost for 20 more so 60. one rounding most gargossals.
Profoundly OP
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 4, 2017 2:41:49 GMT
Ok, Redline for +2 strength, charging an arm 20 under sorcha2's feat Dice +10 +avg 10 on the charge, 40 total damage, scrapping any heavy and damn near ending most colossals in a single attack, buy and boost for 20 more so 60. one rounding most gargossals. Profoundly OP So then you're saying that Juggernauts with Malakov on Sorscha's feat are OP, but you don't see that rocking the meta. You're saying the Spriggan in that satiation does 40 damage. Fine. My 1.5 juggernauts similarly loaded do more than that because you get 1.5 of them for the price, and you get the second initial. So, I'm still not convinced by your logic. Fun as hell, yes. But our faction has lots of ways to crank damage. Juggernaut 19.0 Base POW, primary weapon Redline 21.0 Modified POW ARM 20.0 Charge = 11.5 Base (pre feat) Damage, primary attack Plus Fist 4.0 (Second attack ) Total Pre Feat 15.5 (Total damage ) Double Dam 31.0 (Double it ) 1.5 Models 46.5 (You get 1.5 of em )
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 4, 2017 3:03:19 GMT
You cant buy .5 juggernauts, you cant draw partial cards in a card game either.
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Post by Netherby on Oct 4, 2017 3:32:43 GMT
I don't really see any of these solving the issues with it.
Currently the grenade launchers are essentially useless. Flare is all they are good for. And it's an insane number of points.
All it really needs is high explosive on the grenades along with dual attack or assault to make them useful. Then it needs to drop a point or two.
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Post by Havock on Oct 4, 2017 3:59:56 GMT
You cant buy .5 juggernauts, you cant draw partial cards in a card game either. Technically you can do the latter, but people will just look at you weirdly for tearing up your own stuff
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Post by Havock on Oct 4, 2017 4:05:11 GMT
Honestly, you need to ask yourself the question; how must it be worth its points: Simply beefing up its melee abilities will run into certain issues like "what can you reasonably do with it".
I think the solution is to give it more utility: Give it shield guard, give it longer ranged flares/grenades, give the grenades HE(10).
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 4, 2017 4:13:04 GMT
Honestly, you need to ask yourself the question; how must it be worth its points: Simply beefing up its melee abilities will run into certain issues like "what can you reasonably do with it". I think the solution is to give it more utility: Give it shield guard, give it longer ranged flares/grenades, give the grenades HE(10). Or simply lower its points a little and leave it be. Banshee is a fair comparison. It has a role.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 4, 2017 4:46:53 GMT
This structured approach is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure what the end goal is exactly. Well, anyway, I went ahead and put down my usual suggested tweaks: MAT 7, Sturdy, Arm20+1 with an open fist. I quite like Blarg's idea of increasing the range of the grenade launchers - if it's anti-stealth abilities are so valuable (the way I think PP believes them to be), then we should at least be able to apply them BEFORE the enemy army engages ours, right? I mean, the if the Spriggan is our anti-stealth jack it will be taken in gunline armies, that typically don't have as much in the way of warjack speed buffs, meaning that he will often lag behind the infantry, so he kinda needs that extra range, right? The only issue I see is that anything you do to the grenade launchers affects Torch as well, and he has Assault so increasing the range of his grenade launchers has a significant effect on his "un-stealthing" range. Although, giving the Spriggan Assault might be a good idea; it would also give him the benefit of being able to perform some anti-stealth work while hitting stuff in melee, the way Torch already can, so why not since they have the same grenade launchers?
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Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 4, 2017 4:50:31 GMT
Ok, Redline for +2 strength, charging an arm 20 under sorcha2's feat Dice +10 +avg 10 on the charge, 40 total damage, scrapping any heavy and damn near ending most colossals in a single attack, buy and boost for 20 more so 60. one rounding most gargossals. Profoundly OP So then you're saying that Juggernauts with Malakov on Sorscha's feat are OP, but you don't see that rocking the meta. You're saying the Spriggan in that satiation does 40 damage. Fine. My 1.5 juggernauts similarly loaded do more than that because you get 1.5 of them for the price, and you get the second initial. So, I'm still not convinced by your logic. Fun as hell, yes. But our faction has lots of ways to crank damage. Juggernaut 19.0 Base POW, primary weapon Redline 21.0 Modified POW ARM 20.0 Charge = 11.5 Base (pre feat) Damage, primary attack Plus Fist 4.0 (Second attack ) Total Pre Feat 15.5 (Total damage ) Double Dam 31.0 (Double it ) 1.5 Models 46.5 (You get 1.5 of em ) So you guys start to Theorymachine. Thankfully you kept it short, but I do have to call out some logic faults I see. Mr. mcdermott, you picked the feat of our least used warcaster to create your case, which is fair game, but here's the thing: feat turn, by its very nature, creates over-powered situations. Especially Sorscha2's feat. If you aren't cratering some "fresh from the showroom floor" warjack with Kossites and Mechaniks you're doing it wrong. (OK, maybe not...) If you could prove that the Spriggan could produce outrageous amounts of damage on a non-feat turn then I think you would have a valid point. Mr. Armchair Warrior, you made your point with your bass-ackwards math that the Spriggan may not be worth 1.5 Juggernauts in the melee damage department, but the Spriggan has some advantages that the Juggernaut does not have: Steady, Bulldoze, ARM: 21 when the left arm is feeling good, and the grenade launchers. That is where some of the points are going. I think the real problem with giving the War Lance (*)Armor Piercing is not that it doesn't deserve it, but that too many people will freak out about a POW: 18 weapon getting that ability - the "optics" wouldn't be good as the politicians would say. Find another rule that would be of interest and I think you will find better acceptance. I think Mr. Netherby hit onto a good point regarding the grenade launchers - 2x POW: 10 AOE: 3 attacks are worthless, but the flares are kinda nice. I'm not going to say no to High Explosive on the grenades, but what about allowing the 2 launchers to make a combo attack for a +2 to hit and damage, and then also give the Spriggan Assault. That way when the Spriggan makes a charge the grenade launchers get in on the action, have a better chance of hitting instead of deviating all over the place, and when they hit have a POW 12 instead of a POW 10. Everybody go talk to your people and come back with some feedback.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 4, 2017 4:57:20 GMT
This structured approach is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure what the end goal is exactly. Every time a faction has gone into CID they have dragged other stuff in also. I figure when the MoW go into CID they might drag the Spriggan in also. If not, we should complain up a storm to make it happen. I'm hoping that this exercise will prepare us for that to happen. Just planning ahead...
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 4, 2017 5:13:51 GMT
This structured approach is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure what the end goal is exactly. If not, we should complain up a storm to make it happen. Seems like a great way to get CID closed off the way they did their forums TBH.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 4, 2017 5:19:15 GMT
This structured approach is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure what the end goal is exactly. Every time a faction has gone into CID they have dragged other stuff in also. I figure when the MoW go into CID they might drag the Spriggan in also. If not, we should complain up a storm to make it happen. I'm hoping that this exercise will prepare us for that to happen. Just planning ahead... Well, perhaps "respectfully suggest en-masse" might be a better way of doing it, but sure. And I like the idea of having a fairly uniform suggestion to present to the devs, though I'm not a participant in CID myself. So, back to the Spriggan, sounds like Assault and Sturdy are two popular requests. Perhaps we could present the devs with a summary, something like: "100% of participants in the discussion said that Spriggan should be at least 1 point cheaper, with further improvements. 70% thought the addition of Sturdy was appropriate. 62% thought the addition of Assault was appropriate." etc.
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Post by raghnath on Oct 4, 2017 5:35:46 GMT
I obviously chose to turn it's point cost down to 18 and improve it a litte. Compared to our beatstick jacks I see the Spriggan more like a swiss-army-knife, and therefore it is ok if it is at 150% of Juggys Point cost. But then it also needs to have it's value. Since the whole chassis is at MAT 6 I'm fine with keeping that also on the spriggan. Also the Power 18 of the Lance is fine. What we get (compared to the Juggernaut) is 2" reach, a shield granting it +1 Arm, steady and 2 useless shots, if you also want to do something except only firing the flares.
So to stick with the whole chassis I would also grant it Sturdy. I would put the range of the Weapons up to 12" so you can put down your flares in some spot you'll need. AND (i think most important) I'd give it dual attack, for already mentioned reasons.
That would make it more effective without changing too much and compared to the Juggernaut (or other Khador Jacks) can be justified with being a multi-task jack.
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4 STR: 12 MAT: 6 RAT: 4 DEF: 10 ARM: 19 CMD: - Construct 50mm base PC: 19 18 points FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left) RNG: 10 12 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right) RNG: 10 12 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM)
War Lance RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze Steady Sturdy Dual Attack
Grenade Launcher: Arching Fire Targeting Flare
War Lance: Powerful Charge
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 4, 2017 11:06:32 GMT
Amended to appease Blarg and the other naysayers to armor piercing.
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4 STR: 12 MAT: 7 RAT: 4 DEF: 10 ARM: 19 CMD: - Construct 50mm base PC: 19 18 points FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left) RNG: 10 12 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right) RNG: 10 12 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM)
War Lance RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze Steady Sturdy Dual Attack Assault
Grenade Launcher: Arching Fire Targeting Flare
War Lance: Powerful Charge Brutal Charge
That puts the chassis on par with less expensive models, adds utility to the guns so you can actually get them to work, and adds a variable damage element to it's melee. All of the fluff, and it's point cost even at 18, suggest it needs to beat face in melee. Outside of a highly dedicated gun list, I would never, ever take this jack even at 18 without an improvement to the melee output. I'd like our jacks to generally be worthwhile outside of a niche list.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 4, 2017 12:04:34 GMT
I'm of the opinion that 17 points and improved grenade launcher utility is the way to go. Increased range and dual attack would be great. The flare shot that lowers DEF and removes stealth would be better. Range 14 on top of the previous would be enough for me to consider it at 18-19 points.
The idea of a cavalry jack as an alternative is really interesting but you know that PP would give the spriggan's war Lance the Lance rule if they go that route.
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