|
Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 3, 2017 16:53:38 GMT
After leading the MoW CID Prep discussions and my adventures in "shitposting" I realized that using the polls could be a powerful way to lead a structured discussion on how improve or change units in the game that we all know need changing. I suggest a structured discussion, not to stifle what anyone has to say, but to try to keep the discussion from drifting off into the weeds like these discussions will tend to do. I figured I'd start with the Spriggan and see how it goes.
1) Vote in the poll above. 2) Post a reply, with the first line being what your vote was. (If necessary) 3) Copy and paste the Spriggan stats below into your post. 4) Make any changes you suggest. Bold and changes, Strikethrough any deletions 5) If you change your mind on details of your suggestion after discussion, post a reply saying that you have made changes, what they are, and then make changes to your original posting, with a note about what those changes were. (Let's not clog up the thread with multiple postings of the same vote.) 6) If you change your mind on your vote, change your vote, edit your original posting to say "Vote Changed" and then make another reply starting at step 2 above.
Please keep the Theorymachine to a minimum. Excess jibber-jabber leads to more jibber-jabber.
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4 STR: 12 MAT: 6 RAT: 4 DEF: 10 ARM: 19 CMD: - Construct 50mm base PC: 19 points FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM)
War Lance RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze Steady
Grenade Launcher: Arching Fire Targeting Flare
War Lance: Powerful Charge
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 3, 2017 17:27:23 GMT
18 Points
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4 STR: 12 MAT: 6 RAT: 4 DEF: 10 ARM: 19 CMD: - Construct 50mm base PC: 19 18 points FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left) RNG: 10 14 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right) RNG: 10 14 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM) Open Fist Icon
War Lance RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze Impact Attack - This warjack may elect to make an impact attack as part of a charge. When this warjack makes impact attacks the attacks have a base POW equal to its STR. The melee range of impact attacks is 0.5" Steady
Grenade Launcher: Arching Fire Targeting Flare
War Lance: Critical Pitch Powerful Charge
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 3, 2017 17:30:26 GMT
19pts - Change it
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4 STR: 12 MAT: 6 RAT: 4 DEF: 10 ARM: 19 CMD: - Construct 50mm base PC: 19 points FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM)
War Lance RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze Steady
Grenade Launcher: Arcing Fire Targeting Flare
War Lance: Powerful Charge Armour Piercing (Special Attack)
Without going into too much waffle, it's outclassed by the Jugger, which hits harder and more accurately for fewer points. If the cost is to remain higher than Ruin's, it needs a unique, powerful selling point. A massive scary attack should do! Might even need to be 20pts with that.
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Oct 3, 2017 17:32:42 GMT
Make it 17 pts and be done with it. He is useful and has a niche to fill, but he costs too much. 19 pts gets you a warpwolf stalker or troll bomber, you have to completely redesign Spriggan to be anywhere near that.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Oct 3, 2017 20:22:46 GMT
With Smooth. You have to radically rework it to make it make sense. You could but it would be hard and difficult. Lowering point total to 17 would seem to hit a good sweet spot and would see it included much more often.
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 3, 2017 21:26:17 GMT
I have to disagree. 17 points does not solve anything about the Spriggan, because of the roles it seems designed to play. Even at 17, compare it to the Grolar, which is more mobile, has a better in-built accuracy buff, has a better gun, and above all is designed to be able to use all of its kit at once. Hell, it even hits slightly harder and has an open fist. The Spriggan is slightly tougher until it loses an arm, can't be knocked and has the anti-stealth tech.
The only unique option it offers is anti-stealth, and if you use that you basically aren't using it as a beatstick because it doesn't have Dual Attack or anything like that, so you have to sit there, 10" away from the enemy lines.
At 17 points you will see the Spriggan in the exact same number of lists; WGK lists that need anti-stealth, but can't take Reinholdt. (EDIT: And also Strakhov, because of the Heaven Piercing Spear)
A more useful one would be if it got Dual Attack, as then it can threaten backlines, and use the Flares whilst being a beatstick. But I still think that would only be worth 17 points.
|
|
|
Post by kovnikninehouse on Oct 3, 2017 22:14:22 GMT
How about they give it the Kraye treatment and give it the Cavalry rules. Impact attacks and instead of pathfinder give it armour piercing on the charge and/or powerful charge and repo 3.
This feels thematic
|
|
Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
|
Post by Growl on Oct 3, 2017 23:55:05 GMT
I voted other. I think it should be like 17pts and then with some small changes.
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4 STR: 12 MAT: 6 RAT: 4 DEF: 10 ARM: 19 CMD: - Construct 50mm base PC: 19 points 17 FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM)
War Lance RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze Steady
Grenade Launcher: Arching Fire Targeting Flare
War Lance: Powerful Charge
The Base ARM should be either 20 with plus 2 from shield or 20 with plus 1 from buckler and then with open fist. Likewise it should have other defensive abilities like sturdy and then either girded or road block (? The one where it can provide cover) while the shield is intact.
|
|
|
Post by tjhairball on Oct 4, 2017 0:12:28 GMT
18 - change it.
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4 STR: 12 MAT: 7 RAT: 5 DEF: 10 ARM: 19 CMD: - Construct 50mm base PC: 18 points FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM)
War Lance RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze Steady Sturdy
Grenade Launcher: Arching Fire Targeting Flare
War Lance: Powerful Charge
It's insane to me that the Spriggan chassis, supposedly more advanced, is 6/4. Sturdy is precedented by the other two (and will make them seem more consistent as a group). At 7/5, 18 points, and Sturdy, it can talk terms with Torch at least.
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 4, 2017 1:16:41 GMT
How about they give it the Kraye treatment and give it the Cavalry rules. Impact attacks and instead of pathfinder give it armour piercing on the charge and/or powerful charge and repo 3. This feels thematic Interesting! Is there any way you can come back and do a copy - paste with your suggestion? What would you suggest the point cost of your version of the Spriggan be? I think it would help if we saw as much correlation as possible between votes up at the top and suggestions down here in the body of the thread.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 4, 2017 1:38:57 GMT
18pts - Change it
Spriggan (Khador Heavy Warjack)
SPD: 4
STR: 12
MAT: 6 7 RAT: 4
DEF: 10
ARM: 19
20 (22/Shield) CMD: -
Construct
50mm base
PC: 19 points
FA: U
Grenade Launcher (Left)
RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Grenade Launcher (Right)
RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 10
Shield
RNG: 1 POW: 2 P+S: 14 Shield Icon (+2 ARM)
War Lance
RNG: 2 POW: 6 P+S: 18
Bulldoze
Steady Sturdy
Grenade Launcher:
Arcing Fire
Targeting Flare
Assault
War Lance:
Powerful Charge
Armour Piercing (* Attack)
Having just read Aftershock, I can confirm the fluff. The Spriggan is supposed to be a melee beatstick that can one shot a caster, and has extraordinary armor.
MAT 7 required. Armor piercing as a * attack (so only 1/round, and you lose your 2nd initial) is not OP at 18 points, and would then have a role to play in the faction. The ARM bump is to help make it more survivable. Benchmark to the Grolar which has POW 18/knockdown/beat back with dual attack. Or 1.5 Juggernauts!
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Oct 4, 2017 1:54:30 GMT
MAT 7 required. Armor piercing as a * attack (so only 1/round, and you lose your 2nd initial) is not OP at 18 points, Pow 18 armor piercing is PROFOUNDLY op, even at 20 points.
|
|
|
Post by chickenslayer on Oct 4, 2017 2:03:50 GMT
I look forward to One-Shotting a Colossal with eSorscha then Honestly picking up Sturdy and/or High Explosive on its Grenade Launchers and it's probably fine. Could go Dual Attack/Assault if you want to take it a step further. I've run these things before in Winter Guard Kommand which is where they feel like they belong and probably will continue to do so. They're a premium for anti-stealth and a decent melee beater, while Advanced Move gets them into flare positions early and often. Khador in general can fix the MAT issues since the majority of casters have a means of fixing MAT 6 from back in MK2 and have kept those same means into MK3.
|
|
|
Post by Havock on Oct 4, 2017 2:10:04 GMT
SPD 5, MAT 7, beat back on the shield, imprint [shield guard]. Up the grenade launcher range a bit. Maybe Carapace to pay homage to its devastator roots . Yeah it makes it stupidly resilient to shooting, but honestly, it's not like you can spam it at the 18 point mark and it's still only PS 18. Maybe give it brutal charge as well, it still gives it a little oomph on the charge but it isn't as broken as PS18 AP.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 4, 2017 2:24:12 GMT
MAT 7 required. Armor piercing as a * attack (so only 1/round, and you lose your 2nd initial) is not OP at 18 points, Pow 18 armor piercing is PROFOUNDLY op, even at 20 points. Please show me your math on that. (Not argumentative...just curious). I've calculated mine and posted it elsewhere on this forum where the benchmark is 1.5 Juggernauts vs 1.0 Spriggans. The Juggers compare favorably because my proposal is for it to be a * Attack. You might be right but straight damage math suggests it's pretty even. That said I could see keeping it at 19.
|
|