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Post by gordaunikus1 on Oct 3, 2017 16:30:56 GMT
So I'm stumped. I'm playing in a champions event and would like to kaya3 in call of the Wild. Played a couple games and it will be my main list.
Off list to cover heavy shooting and maybe super infantry spam is morv1 in secret master. Any thoughts on list are welcome. Specifically, I don't think I can generate enough fury. But I still want fulcrum for shooting and blackclads, druids stealth clouds and element protection, and mist riders for infantry shredding and speed.
Ideas? List assumes 14 pt wardens. War Room Army
Circle Orboros - Morv1
Theme: Secret Masters 3 / 3 Free Cards 79 / 75 Army
<! OVER POINT LIMIT !>
Morvahna the Autumnblade - WB: +28 - Druid Wilder - PC: 0 - Woldwarden - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Woldwarden - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
Celestial Fulcrum - PC: 19
Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Stoneshaper - PC: 3 Blackclad Stoneshaper - PC: 3
Druids of Orboros - Leader & 5 Grunts: 12 - Druid of Orboros Overseer - PC: 4 Druid Mist Riders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers - Bokor & 9 Grunts: 11 Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3
THEME: Secret Masters ---
GENERATED : 10/03/2017 11:30:13 BUILD ID : 2050.17-09-10
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 3, 2017 17:33:02 GMT
Looks pretty darn similar to Paganis List from the Insider. I think the biggest worry is hitting power. Lots of low pow attacks and only 2 heavies that cap at Pow 16. Also, it seems you may have trouble fueling Morv and the fulcrum (fury 3 ugh) I think if you are looking for an anti gun line list that can also handle dude spam in droves, you are better off Looking at krueger 2. (he also just laughs at the Nemo's/storm division cygnar) Windwall and Lightning storm is pretty great and you can take a self sufficient unit like brigands or Nyss to do some damage and contest effectively. I was even thinking using a bokur for "unlimited shield guard" via sac pawn. Something like this: Krueger2 -Pureblood -2 Wyrds -Warden Fulcrum shaper wayfarer Bokur Gallows grove Max Brigands -Warlord Shifting stones. I still think its just better to build in one of our many other themes. Secret masters just does not know what it wants to do and does nothing meaningful to assist our below average balcklad units. You have infantry cleaning out the wazoo, a solid contesting unit and a shield guard for the fulcrum/unlimited shield guard for Krueger 2. I still would prefer this list in any other theme but I figure if you really wanna make Secret masters work Ill try my best to help
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Oct 3, 2017 20:12:22 GMT
I originally had it as devour host w 2 units of weavers, bloodtrackers+ nuala as regrowth target, deathwolves, and griffons, pureblood, gorax. But I don't love that as a way to devestate any form of gunlines.
I see secret masters (not sure which caster) as an answer to any form of gunline. Whether that's kruger2, Baldur 1(blast damage and los), or whatever .... for now I'm trying morv1 Bc I see it as a good complement to kaya3.
I don't know why hitting power is an issue. 2 heavies (tho 3 fury) w pow 19 after cid is fine when combined w wayfarer and they are delivered w a cloud/forest wall and the fulcrum chips in. I see this list as having to crack maybe 1 durable target. Kaya 3 takes care of the rest. If that durable target is a stormwall/hurricane in a gunline, I basically just plan to ignore it.
All good points tho Mac. Maybe you see a better pairing in adr?
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Post by Fudly on Oct 3, 2017 20:39:10 GMT
I think you're stuck with Morv, but I wouldn't play her in theme. Trackers are her best regrowth target. If you don't have them, there's no reason to play Morv. She also already has sac pawn, so she doesn't benefit much from having it twice. Something like this maybe: | Circle Army - 75 / 75 points
(Morvahna 1) Morvahna the Autumnblade [+28][*]Woldwrath [37] [*]Woldwyrd [9] [*]Woldwyrd [9]
Blackclad Stoneshaper [3] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [11] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Shifting Stones [3] Tharn Bloodtrackers (max) [16][*]Nuala the Huntress [4]
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(I don't play morv or champions)
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 3, 2017 20:45:50 GMT
I don't want to just say don't go Secret masters. Because I too am going to experiment with it just to try and prove my impressions wrong. If the theme allowed Wurmy, I could basically plug my current wurmy list into it (without sentry stones) but now that all our themes allow the exact same minions/merc options it loses even more viability IMO.
If we could support the shamblers somehow have more recursion, weather through a second minion unit, or being allowed a non/blacklad unit (like wolf sworn of tharn) I think the list could have potential as a mass psuedo shield guard list. As it stands, it just lacks the staying power it needs to get the job done. Druids are not exactly difficult to remove entirely capping at 7 models and their defensive tech is very conditional which is why people tend to not take them.
Wardens cap at Pow 18 with enrage from shaper (plus 2 pow) which is OK but not exactly reliable for the average heavy. I have also found, ignoring the stormwall/hurricane, normally ends in it assassinating you. I normally try to subdue or kill it as a priority target as most cygnar lists lose all their momentum if you can negate or kill it in some way. Honestly outside of the wardens the rest of your attacks are pow 12 or less and that is an issue
I just do not think you can reliably face gunlines with the list. If you play into ret they just ignore all your tech, blast damage also laughs at druids which also negates call to sacrifice so kahdor and protectorate (mostly redeemers and deliverers who will be very popular soon) are an issue. Hilariously the faction i think struggles most into your list is circle. Typical PP design team.
Your list absolutely mulches infantry though, and e leaps are a good way to chew through banes in Dark host because they ignore the Wraith engine aura. If we had more support for mist riders outside of the storm raptor I would be all in for them. (and if they were +1 mat and Magic ability. for goodness sakes mat 5? really...) They also interact negatively with Morv 1's feat as the spells and the e lepas do not trigger it (also the forests would block LoS for battle wizard making them clunky to use on feat turn. I think they are at their best with Krueger 1 as they can throw out e leaps everywhere and gain 2" reach Pow 12 impact attacks that also cause e leaps. Just lots of fun.
If you are gonna run Morv as this odd anti gunline list I think Wild Hunt or Devourers host are the way to go.
As far as a specific gunline counter in ADR, we are left with tanith and Bradigus. is this even soon? If it is we have some problems. If it is not till november you may be able to run the following bradigus list in ADR:
Brad Bones of Orboros -2 Guardians -2 Wardens -2 Wights -2 Watchers (hopefully will get another bump in CiD in hitting power) 2 Sentry Stones 2 Wayfarers 2 Shapers shifting stones
Lots of shield guards to protect brad and shift around damage. Fast approach and hits like a truck with CiD changes It is also very resistant to offensive spells with the preposed Mystic wards. Im a little salty brad did not get a kraye level overhaul but oh well.
If you don't want to play with unreleased rules I think tanith is your best bet: Go whole hog with the stealth concept and use terrain to your advantage Tanith: Call of the wild -Loki -Stalker -Pureblood -3 Scrasfells -Gorax -Wilder 2 Wayfarers 2 Shifting Stones 2 Gallows Grovwe Ellish Swamp Gobber bellows crew
Everything but the pureblood, ellish, gorax, and wilder has stealth or prowl. and the list has lots of ways to hide behind terrain and get through or around it via shifting stones, tracker, or ghostly.
Honestly until the changes for brad and wolds in CiD comes out we just don't have a good anti gun line option in ADR. But that is mostly an issue with our faction right now.
Like I said I don't want to tell you not to use secret masters, go ahead and try it and prove me wrong, I would love to see it work. But I have very low expectations for it and its probably one of the most poorly designed themes released to date in hordes.
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Post by Nahualli on Oct 4, 2017 14:23:07 GMT
Another flavor for Secret Masters, similar to what Greg from Party Foul is running: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0M3Q4McHcH4z4H4H4H575ccRi7Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Secret Masters (Kaya 1) Kaya the Wildborne [+32] - Pureblood Warpwolf [17] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Wild Argus [7] - Woldwyrd [9] - Woldwyrd [9] - Woldwyrd [9] Druids of Orboros [12] - Druid of Orboros Overseer [0(4)] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [11] Celestial Fulcrum [19] This theme is fine, but won't cover many problematic matches. At least we can have some janky fun with it, just don't expect to be winning all the time. My priority right now is learning Kaya3 and Kromac1, but I too have Secret Masters lists with Mohsar and Morv2 waiting to be tested.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Oct 5, 2017 16:38:55 GMT
Appreciate all the feedback. I took my list above to a local game night and got my face beat in. Partly bc it’s not the easiest list to use and partly bc it is poorly designed.
I played against Jarl w huge threating fenblades and champions with take down from theme (they only took down one regrowth druid). Basically the druids 6ish attacks at magic 7 with fulcrum isn’t enough to reliably hit def 14. And when they do hit they have an ok chance to kill, but tough hurts. Mist riders have same problem, you’d think mat 6 pow 12 with impact, charge, and battle wizard would shred, but toughs happen and then they die. I for sure could have played them better. That being said, the fulcrum does work and wardens at 14 points launching pow 13s are great. Basically I lost most mist riders and got pushed out of 2 zones and eventually lost in scenario. Bad play on my part.
Second game again barnabus 2. Again the mist riders are tough to use. Barnabus 2 gives minus 2 to attack rolls on so mat 3 on the charge or magic 5 is pretty sad. This game was actually in reach but I couldn’t take down the dracodile w 2 wardens both w power of the stone up. From there I just got pushed out of scenario on the side where I committed the riders too quickly. Bad luck and Bad play on me.
A few take aways: - rigging your shambler corpses is the way to do it. Shooting didn’t come into play much, but having mid riders feed corpses to them sucks. - mat 5 mist riders are not meant to swing their axes. Have them dance around the far edges of their 10” chain lightning and don’t ever expect them to go in. - the fulcrum can only do so much. - regrowth druids are great at contested and .... ..... I dunno what else in this list. Maybe they could help clear line of site for fulcrum and warden assanitations. - morv1 feat works best w things that actually Melee.
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Post by Nahualli on Oct 5, 2017 16:55:57 GMT
After some ponder, this is the list I am going to start trying: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0Mg1cn4Hg45ghm75575c575c5fCircle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Secret Masters (Tanith 1) Tanith the Feral Song [+31] - Woldwrath [37] - Woldwyrd [9] Blackclad Stoneshaper [3] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Gremlin Swarm [3] Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19] Druids of Orboros [12] - Druid of Orboros Overseer [4] Druids of Orboros [12] - Druid of Orboros Overseer [4] Shifting Stones [3] Benefits: * Druids Wrath to ensure knockdowns and pushes. * Scything touch with Blacklad Wayfarer. With Phase Jump, I can put the debuff pretty far away, and is difficult to stop. * Arcane Suppression on an Admonitioned wyrd. * 27 boxes taken out with Affliction at minimum (the two units of druis, the nyss hunters and the wyrd). I think I can have game against different types of armies, is very flexible on what you attempt to do (assassination, attrition and scenario), and of course our most favorable matchups are against ranged armies and slow armies.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 5, 2017 17:05:06 GMT
Mist riders and druids both need a flat increase to mat and magic ability honestly Mat 5 is just garbage on dudes that have trained with magic and using their staffs for most of their lives. I just got riders for muh Birthday I am gonna be plugging them into a secret masters tanith list. She gives them a +2-5 mat/MA swing not counting fulcrum buff. Affliction is great with all their low pow low accuracy attacks. (especially into shield wall or high arm infantry) She also let a relatively small BG do work as long as you include Loki Tanith: -Warden -Loki -Wyrd Fulcrum 2 Wayfarers Ellish 2 Gallows Shaper Max Mist riders Shifting Stones Max Shamblers (cid cost) I don't know how it will preform but the BG can run full every turn and be OK and it shoots pretty darn well. I think you want to play it into combined arms lists like the cryx pirate themes or lists with lots of dudes or shiedlwall infantry. My biggest issue is just how darn expensive everything is...20 points for the riders makes it really hard to fit anything meaningful in the list. I am thinking of changing them to a min unti and just full committing them to a flank. Ugh...this theme is so frustrating.
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Post by Nahualli on Oct 5, 2017 17:16:16 GMT
I bought the shamblers because I was planning to use them in this theme, but speed 5 trying to catch up guys with speed 6 and apparition... I don't know. They want to be in the front line, the bubble for corpse gathering is very small. I don't know how the unpacking works here, I hope I get to see someone succeeds on this and learn from it.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 5, 2017 18:07:03 GMT
I bought the shamblers because I was planning to use them in this theme, but speed 5 trying to catch up guys with speed 6 and apparition... I don't know. They want to be in the front line, the bubble for corpse gathering is very small. I don't know how the unpacking works here, I hope I get to see someone succeeds on this and learn from it. Its the cheapest way to get a lot of sac pawn targets. The other option is to just take bone grinders to only protect your caster. Honestly I am considering just dropping the shamblers entirely for a second wyrd and trying to make the warden a pureblood. The sac pawn benefit is kind of awful with only 1 minion unit allowed and only druids for units. Still have no idea how pagani thought this theme was ok...the more I try to make lists with it the more annoyed i get with it...
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Post by Forsaken on Oct 6, 2017 10:28:26 GMT
The op got me thinking after reading his post. This probably won't help him much because he wanted a pairing for his Kaya 3 list but....
Kaya3 in Secret Masters Wilder Woldwarden Woldwyrd Gorax rager Scarsfell gryphon Wild argus Celestial fulcrum Blackclad wayfarer (free) Blackclad stoneshaper (free) Blackclad stoneshaper Gatorman witch doctor Gatorman bokor and shamblers Shifting stones with ua Druids of Oroboros
This list is using CID costs for the Woldwarden and Shamblers and assumes the CID version of the Witch doctor and Stoneshaper . The Woldwarden can put out bloodspillers so there is plenty of free beast charges with the Wayfarer. The wilder can upkeep either synergy or fog up for Kaya and also helps her spread out her living beasts or keeps them alive. The wolds and living beasts both hit above their class with primal, enrage and synergy. The CID version of witch doctor helps the shamblers keep up with the army. There is plenty of beasts for synergy chains and the wolds keep the Fulcrum fueled while it buffs all the Blackclads who are protected by the shamblers and prowl. The Shifting stones do all their tricks and have stealth from fog. You could switch out the free Stoneshaper for a free ua on the Druids, I waffled on that. Thoughts?
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Post by Nahualli on Oct 6, 2017 14:27:52 GMT
I like the inclusion of the witch doctor to help shamblers move faster, haven't seen that. A mixed battle group sounds interesting but hard to pull off. Let us know what works and what doesn't when you try it on the table.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Oct 6, 2017 14:29:02 GMT
I like the thought, I just have some trouble not seeing kaya3 as an awesome answer to aproblem circle players have been stressing which is armor cracking. This list is better rounded than the 3 heavy,7 light Kaya 3 list with hutchhuck, but for me right now, I would like to keep playing kaya3 W a jillion beast and find a different off list.
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Post by mindwormjim on Oct 6, 2017 22:14:21 GMT
I don't like saying things like this, but I think the problem with your Secret Masters list is that it's Secret Masters. Blackclads are all well and good, but they are mostly support models. You can't build a coherent army out of nothing but support models. If you try to get around this by investing heavily into your battegroup you can construct a perfectly good list, but at that point why are you even bothering with Secret Masters?
If you're looking for an anti-infantry list that is resilient to shooting I would suggest looking towards either of the Kreugers plus infantry or Badlur2 with Fulcrums.
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