Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 27, 2017 21:07:05 GMT
I've been thinking of ways to profitably use all 3 of out themes, and while I'm found decent uses for Devourer's Host and Wild Hunt, I've been struggling a bit with Bones. Now, maybe it's just a bad theme, but as a wold-lover I'm not willing to give up on it without giving it a fair shake, so I wanted to share some (purely theoretical at this point) potential ways of getting value out of the theme, and see if anyone has thoughts on them/their own ideas on making it work.
Basically, as I see it the theme has 2 main issues:
- Wolds are slow
- Wolds don't hit hard
Now, the obvious route would be to try and make the theme work with one of the wold casters - Bradigus, Baldur1, and Baldur2. I think this is non-optimal for a couple of reasons:
Bradigus: Initially seems like a good fit. he doesn't lose much personally by running in theme - he wants a large battlegroup for synergy/feat, and he can't take anything other than wolds anyways. In addition, he solves the speed issue somewhat with his feat, and the 'pillowfisted' issue with synergy. The problem is...Bradigus himself isn't very good. He took quite a few hits going into Mk3, and between the synergy nerf, the mystic wards nerf, the shifting stones nerf, and the loss of his theme, he's not what he once was. On top of that, he's the only one of the 'wold' casters who can't take Megalith (I am baffled as to why he was not included in this theme, while Ghetorix got included in the Tharn theme, but that's beside the point.) Nevertheless, I DO think that if you're running Bradigus, you should probably be running him in theme.
Baldur1: Seems like the second best choice (of Woldlock) for running the theme - he DOES have a damage buff, and the feat can help you get the alpha (though it doesn't guarantee it - did I mention Wolds are slow?) Free charges are nice, and the ability to take Megalith gives you at least one decent beatstick, too. However, there's also some Skornergy in that Wolds don't really benefit from solid ground (many can't be knocked down, and they all laugh at blast damage) and stone skin (now that it can't be geomancied) slows down the already slow wolds even further (shifting stones can get around this, but then you're wasting the free charge, and the range on the stones isn't great anymore.) There's also the issue that IMO Baldur1 is better run in the Tharn theme.
Baldur2: Not much to say here. The wall buffs the Wold's defense from laughable to mediocre, he doesn't have a damage buff, and he doesn't have any way to speed up Wolds. With Roots of the Earth you COULD make an impressively grindy attrition wold list, but good luck killing anything. Again, it's likely inferior (IMO) to running him with a Warpwolf beast brick (High defense, Wall, star-crossed, and Roots is a hard combo to top.)
Non-Woldlocks
I'm going to skate over most of these because most of them don't do anything for the wolds, have skornergy with them, or need specific pieces that aren't available in theme.
Morvahna 1: Need living infantry to bring back with regrowth, feat has skornergy with fertilizer, adds nothing to speed or hitting power. Pass.
Morvahna 2: again, wants infantry for the feat, no damage buff, no movement buff.
Kromac1: An interesting one. I think there's some potential here, for a couple of reasons - Warpath no longer only affects only living beasts, so it can speed up Wolds, and you can bring Ghetorix for some extra hitting power. Shrimps + Sentry stones to trigger warpath, Ghetorix, add wolds to taste...seems like it might have potential. The only issues are that Warpwolves might do it better (even with the free points) and that Kromac doesn't have a damage buff. I think it's worth testing, though;.
Kromac2: Needs living beasts for the feat. Pass.
Grayle: should probably be run in the wolf sworn theme if at all, does nothing for wolds except the feat...which you'll never profitably trigger with wolds.
Krueger1: does nothing for wolds except slightly extend their threat with lightning tendrils
Krueger2: some interesting synergies here - Krueger has two eminently geomancy-able spells (gallows and TK) and can speed up wolds with the same. I think there's a janky assassination list here that uses TK and Gallows to pull off improbably threat vectors, but it probably doesn't rise above the level of jank. I'll likely test it at some point, but I'm dubious.
Una2: hahahahaha no.
Mohsar: decidedly mediocre, but that's kind of Mohsar's game these days. Apparition can speed the wolds up, Curse of shadows gives them some hitting power, sunhammer means you profit from long, grindy games, especially if wolds are slamming/pushing things around (the combo smites have corner-case synergy with Pillars of Salt, too.)Worth testing, if only because I'll take any option that might make ol'grumpy useful again.
Wormwood: The problem here is that while Wurmwood offers a ton of things that Wolds want (and stranglehold is possibly the best spell to geomancy in the faction) the theme has a distinct lack of souls. I'm running megalith in my Wurmwood list, and I'm testing a Warden, but I don't think the theme offers enough to offset the restrictions.
Tanith: Our faction's premiere turd-polisher, and unsurprisingly, that includes Wolds. She can make them hit better, she can make them hit harder, and she can bring Loki to do some decent threat extension. In addition, Rift is a good spell for Geomancy, and combined with Woldwarden Animi and Sentry stones, she can generate a surprising amount of rough terrain. The combination of Geomancied Rifts, Loki, and her feat can give her a fairly strong spell assassination. Personally, I think she's marginal - she gets some benefits from running in theme, has some synergies in working with Wolds, but she gives up some substantial advantages to do so (loss of access to primal and wraithbane are, as usual, an issue, and the loss of reeves can hurt.)
Kaya1: Skornergy with her Pack Hunter ability, and Spirit fang is no longer a great spell to geomancy (as it doesn't stop charges.) Offers no threat extension or damage buff, and her main schtick (yo-yo heavies with spirit door) is better with faster, more damaging (and more fragile) warpwolves than with wolds. Also, generally a poor warlock.
Kaya2: Well, Dog Pile can make wolds have a threat range that isn't embarassing, but that's about all she offers. In theme, the only target for forced evolution is Laris, which seems...bad, so unless she gets a character warpwolf, she's not a good choice for this theme. As with Kaya1, her double alpha trick works better with beasts that can get the alpha.
Kaya3: I think she might be the best option for this theme, honestly. Time will tell if it's actually more viable than running her out of theme (or, as is my preference, in Wild Hunt,) but she offers a lot to Wolds - she doesn't have any ways of speeding them up (though they're slow enough that reposition ALMOST counts) but Synergy is always good, and fog of war synergizes with the high defense on Woldwyrds (though nothing else.)
For Kaya3, I see two ways to build a list:
1. build a gunline leveraging the generally excellent woldwyrds and reposition, with Wardens threatening a synergy-counterpunch if the enemy does engage. I think this option is better in wild hunt, as the free points you get aren't worth giving up on ambushing wolves and spraying purebloods.
2. Woldwatcher spam: Advance deploy + 2" extra deployment gets them over the centre line on turn one, synergy lets them hit like goats (not a recommendation, I know) and reposition lets them turn models into forests with fertilizer, then reposition behind the forests. Back it up with a pair of woldwardens as heavy(ish) hitters and it could get some work done.
What do you all think?
Basically, as I see it the theme has 2 main issues:
- Wolds are slow
- Wolds don't hit hard
Now, the obvious route would be to try and make the theme work with one of the wold casters - Bradigus, Baldur1, and Baldur2. I think this is non-optimal for a couple of reasons:
Bradigus: Initially seems like a good fit. he doesn't lose much personally by running in theme - he wants a large battlegroup for synergy/feat, and he can't take anything other than wolds anyways. In addition, he solves the speed issue somewhat with his feat, and the 'pillowfisted' issue with synergy. The problem is...Bradigus himself isn't very good. He took quite a few hits going into Mk3, and between the synergy nerf, the mystic wards nerf, the shifting stones nerf, and the loss of his theme, he's not what he once was. On top of that, he's the only one of the 'wold' casters who can't take Megalith (I am baffled as to why he was not included in this theme, while Ghetorix got included in the Tharn theme, but that's beside the point.) Nevertheless, I DO think that if you're running Bradigus, you should probably be running him in theme.
Baldur1: Seems like the second best choice (of Woldlock) for running the theme - he DOES have a damage buff, and the feat can help you get the alpha (though it doesn't guarantee it - did I mention Wolds are slow?) Free charges are nice, and the ability to take Megalith gives you at least one decent beatstick, too. However, there's also some Skornergy in that Wolds don't really benefit from solid ground (many can't be knocked down, and they all laugh at blast damage) and stone skin (now that it can't be geomancied) slows down the already slow wolds even further (shifting stones can get around this, but then you're wasting the free charge, and the range on the stones isn't great anymore.) There's also the issue that IMO Baldur1 is better run in the Tharn theme.
Baldur2: Not much to say here. The wall buffs the Wold's defense from laughable to mediocre, he doesn't have a damage buff, and he doesn't have any way to speed up Wolds. With Roots of the Earth you COULD make an impressively grindy attrition wold list, but good luck killing anything. Again, it's likely inferior (IMO) to running him with a Warpwolf beast brick (High defense, Wall, star-crossed, and Roots is a hard combo to top.)
Non-Woldlocks
I'm going to skate over most of these because most of them don't do anything for the wolds, have skornergy with them, or need specific pieces that aren't available in theme.
Morvahna 1: Need living infantry to bring back with regrowth, feat has skornergy with fertilizer, adds nothing to speed or hitting power. Pass.
Morvahna 2: again, wants infantry for the feat, no damage buff, no movement buff.
Kromac1: An interesting one. I think there's some potential here, for a couple of reasons - Warpath no longer only affects only living beasts, so it can speed up Wolds, and you can bring Ghetorix for some extra hitting power. Shrimps + Sentry stones to trigger warpath, Ghetorix, add wolds to taste...seems like it might have potential. The only issues are that Warpwolves might do it better (even with the free points) and that Kromac doesn't have a damage buff. I think it's worth testing, though;.
Kromac2: Needs living beasts for the feat. Pass.
Grayle: should probably be run in the wolf sworn theme if at all, does nothing for wolds except the feat...which you'll never profitably trigger with wolds.
Krueger1: does nothing for wolds except slightly extend their threat with lightning tendrils
Krueger2: some interesting synergies here - Krueger has two eminently geomancy-able spells (gallows and TK) and can speed up wolds with the same. I think there's a janky assassination list here that uses TK and Gallows to pull off improbably threat vectors, but it probably doesn't rise above the level of jank. I'll likely test it at some point, but I'm dubious.
Una2: hahahahaha no.
Mohsar: decidedly mediocre, but that's kind of Mohsar's game these days. Apparition can speed the wolds up, Curse of shadows gives them some hitting power, sunhammer means you profit from long, grindy games, especially if wolds are slamming/pushing things around (the combo smites have corner-case synergy with Pillars of Salt, too.)Worth testing, if only because I'll take any option that might make ol'grumpy useful again.
Wormwood: The problem here is that while Wurmwood offers a ton of things that Wolds want (and stranglehold is possibly the best spell to geomancy in the faction) the theme has a distinct lack of souls. I'm running megalith in my Wurmwood list, and I'm testing a Warden, but I don't think the theme offers enough to offset the restrictions.
Tanith: Our faction's premiere turd-polisher, and unsurprisingly, that includes Wolds. She can make them hit better, she can make them hit harder, and she can bring Loki to do some decent threat extension. In addition, Rift is a good spell for Geomancy, and combined with Woldwarden Animi and Sentry stones, she can generate a surprising amount of rough terrain. The combination of Geomancied Rifts, Loki, and her feat can give her a fairly strong spell assassination. Personally, I think she's marginal - she gets some benefits from running in theme, has some synergies in working with Wolds, but she gives up some substantial advantages to do so (loss of access to primal and wraithbane are, as usual, an issue, and the loss of reeves can hurt.)
Kaya1: Skornergy with her Pack Hunter ability, and Spirit fang is no longer a great spell to geomancy (as it doesn't stop charges.) Offers no threat extension or damage buff, and her main schtick (yo-yo heavies with spirit door) is better with faster, more damaging (and more fragile) warpwolves than with wolds. Also, generally a poor warlock.
Kaya2: Well, Dog Pile can make wolds have a threat range that isn't embarassing, but that's about all she offers. In theme, the only target for forced evolution is Laris, which seems...bad, so unless she gets a character warpwolf, she's not a good choice for this theme. As with Kaya1, her double alpha trick works better with beasts that can get the alpha.
Kaya3: I think she might be the best option for this theme, honestly. Time will tell if it's actually more viable than running her out of theme (or, as is my preference, in Wild Hunt,) but she offers a lot to Wolds - she doesn't have any ways of speeding them up (though they're slow enough that reposition ALMOST counts) but Synergy is always good, and fog of war synergizes with the high defense on Woldwyrds (though nothing else.)
For Kaya3, I see two ways to build a list:
1. build a gunline leveraging the generally excellent woldwyrds and reposition, with Wardens threatening a synergy-counterpunch if the enemy does engage. I think this option is better in wild hunt, as the free points you get aren't worth giving up on ambushing wolves and spraying purebloods.
2. Woldwatcher spam: Advance deploy + 2" extra deployment gets them over the centre line on turn one, synergy lets them hit like goats (not a recommendation, I know) and reposition lets them turn models into forests with fertilizer, then reposition behind the forests. Back it up with a pair of woldwardens as heavy(ish) hitters and it could get some work done.
What do you all think?