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Post by elladan52 on Oct 2, 2017 17:11:12 GMT
The Ryssovass guys are odd in ret... they look pretty bad compared to Sentinels and seem to fill the same role... Is the sole factor in choosing one over the otehr the theme list? Not a critique but an actual question to pointy eared guys/gals in white. Well, there is a 6 pt difference between the units, so they really should look worse.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Oct 3, 2017 1:03:13 GMT
Getting new models is not always a good thing. Look at Retribution releases, few of theme see regular playtime despite the ammount of new models. I would say that the Spears and Hemera are the most commonly seen pieces in competitive lists. That has less to do with new releases being bad as much as people think "legacy models" are better mostly because they already own them. Nyssor Priest with Winter storm is pretty good, Aelyth is a pretty ballin combat solo, The ryssovas defenders may not seem better than sentinels, but precision strike on Weaponmasters is pretty deadly. I also know people that really like 4shade. Let's be honest, most of the new releases fall short. I mean, we wanted to buy the new stuff when we saw it, we were happy to get Goreshade back, and when the rules dropped, most players were like... Why won't you take my money PP? Goreshade is considered having a weak feak in a faction with typically weak feats... Aelyth might see play as a free solo now in Defenders and the Ryssovas might get played instead of a 3rd unit of Halberdiers if someone already has them... But to be honest, I was looking for reasons to buy them and never found any other reason then they look good as models.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 3, 2017 1:31:18 GMT
You think Ret feats are weak? Come on over to Skorne-Ville and let me show you something that will make your head spin.
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Post by dazzla on Oct 3, 2017 1:33:25 GMT
That has less to do with new releases being bad as much as people think "legacy models" are better mostly because they already own them. Nyssor Priest with Winter storm is pretty good, Aelyth is a pretty ballin combat solo, The ryssovas defenders may not seem better than sentinels, but precision strike on Weaponmasters is pretty deadly. I also know people that really like 4shade. Let's be honest, most of the new releases fall short. I mean, we wanted to buy the new stuff when we saw it, we were happy to get Goreshade back, and when the rules dropped, most players were like... Why won't you take my money PP? Goreshade is considered having a weak feak in a faction with typically weak feats... Aelyth might see play as a free solo now in Defenders and the Ryssovas might get played instead of a 3rd unit of Halberdiers if someone already has them... But to be honest, I was looking for reasons to buy them and never found any other reason then they look good as models. I much prefer a situation where new models are not auto buy. I would hate it if the opposite were true. IMO many of the recent Ret models have been well balanced. Goreshades feat is not the worst and he has a useful field marshal. Spears are very good.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Oct 3, 2017 2:07:38 GMT
Spears and Hemera are good, Aelyth is good for free, the rest is meh.
Yes Retribution feats and casters are usually considered mid tier, because of how good the units are.
Skorne feat probably aren't among the best in the game either.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Oct 3, 2017 2:08:56 GMT
Don't get me wrong, they aren't bad... They are not just not good enough to make the cut for people like me with limited budget who are gamers first and foremost.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 3, 2017 4:05:52 GMT
The Ryssovass guys are odd in ret... they look pretty bad compared to Sentinels and seem to fill the same role... Is the sole factor in choosing one over the otehr the theme list? Not a critique but an actual question to pointy eared guys/gals in white. Well, there is a 6 pt difference between the units, so they really should look worse. Misleading as all get out. Sentinels are TWO points more than Ryssovass, but they have a CA. Looking at the points cost when one unit has a CA and the other doesn't is incredibly stupid. Without CAs, Sentinels still have vengeance, still have better armor, and still hit substantially harder. Ryssovass have tough, and precision strike to make up the difference, and quite frankly it's nowhere near enough. Ryssovass + Priest is still two points less than Sentinels + CA, and still much worse due to lower armor, lower effective threat, vulnerability to shooting, and lack of pathfinder.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 3, 2017 4:31:34 GMT
Comparing units when one has the CA and the other doesn't is dumb. UA's are practically free points, one having one when the other doesn't puts the one that doesn't at a pretty significant disadvantage. At least 1 to 2 abilities and maybe a minifeat disadvantage.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 3, 2017 5:21:14 GMT
Comparing units when one has the CA and the other doesn't is dumb. UA's are practically free points, one having one when the other doesn't puts the one that doesn't at a pretty significant disadvantage. At least 1 to 2 abilities and maybe a minifeat disadvantage. Which makes it doubly stupid to say something like 'Ryssovass are 6 points less than sentinels, so they should be worse.'
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Post by jisidro on Oct 3, 2017 11:15:05 GMT
mcdermott oncomingstorm I feel this is unreasonably harsh.
Sentinels are, AFAIK, exclusively (mostly?) played with a CA. The situation where a unit is either always taken with a CA or never taken with the CA is A LOT more common than a unit that works in both situations. I can only think of Exemplar Knights as a unit that gets taken both with and without CAs.
With the point and ability diferences in the mix when would you go for the Rysovass and when would you go for the Sentinels?
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 3, 2017 12:25:54 GMT
Let's be honest, most of the new releases fall short. I mean, we wanted to buy the new stuff when we saw it, we were happy to get Goreshade back, and when the rules dropped, most players were like... Why won't you take my money PP? Goreshade is considered having a weak feak in a faction with typically weak feats... Aelyth might see play as a free solo now in Defenders and the Ryssovas might get played instead of a 3rd unit of Halberdiers if someone already has them... But to be honest, I was looking for reasons to buy them and never found any other reason then they look good as models. I am being honest. I think you don't appreciate the releases. The Ryssovas have some cool abilities. The issue as mcdermott has pointed out, is they lack a UA. So in theme when a UA is normally free they appear to be poor releases. I still don't see whats wrong with 4shade. Arcane vortex as a field marshal is pretty great with Power up, He has a very interesting and useful spell list for defensive attrition (revive should really only be cost 2 in the game though) and his feat may not be denny 1 or coven levels good. But Freezer is a pretty solid ability to have on halbs, or and defensive infantry. I don't get the whole weak feat argument...Honestly the only ones with weak feats are Ravyn and Thyron. Everyone else has solid dependable and impactful feats. I just don't get it. I have played into ret a lot and eve if the feats don't all jump out as much as Denny, Coven, Rask, Haley2, Nemo3 (all very top of the line casters) I feel like in a lot of cases you make up for that by having good field marshals, solid spells, and a really dependable and diverse stable models. Ret is one of those factions I hear really weird complaints from and I just don't get it. Like when the Disco Cricket came out, most people said it was not that impressive and would never take 2. But I have seem some really gross lists with double disco cricket. Anyway i want to add I am not attacking ret players as a whole, just expressing some confusion about model interest and opinions.
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Post by Azuresun on Oct 3, 2017 12:37:12 GMT
Well, by "slew", there's been Colbie (like Dirty Meg, only slightly worse) and Ellish. The other new stuff for Mk3 came right at the start of the edition, and then the drought began. The point remains that if you look at what the other non-limited WM factions got in the same time, it's impossible to deny that Mercenaries have slipped a long way in terms of releases compared to the entire six years of Mk2. But wait, hold on, there's the announcement of these cool Llaelese / Ordic guys who....are going to be their own subfaction. It doesn't really bug me that much, since I've moved factions. If there's a minions-style flurry of releases, I might check back in. But you seem to think that if a faction goes from new stuff regularly to almost nothing with no announcement, then it's unreasonable to be annoyed by that. I mean like protectorate is in the same boat. 2-4 new models when mrk3 released. And 1 new model combing out next month. Otger factions get drought periods too I'm not disputing that--though Protectorate have had a lot of awesome stuff since the start of Mk3. The only thing I'm nonplussed by is the people making claims that you're not allowed to complain about your faction suddenly going from "fully supported" to "almost nothing except the odd protagonist of a SIX novel". It seems a curiously spiteful and mean-spirited viewpoint to hold.
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Post by W0lfBane on Oct 3, 2017 14:37:01 GMT
I mean like protectorate is in the same boat. 2-4 new models when mrk3 released. And 1 new model combing out next month. Otger factions get drought periods too I'm not disputing that--though Protectorate have had a lot of awesome stuff since the start of Mk3. The only thing I'm nonplussed by is the people making claims that you're not allowed to complain about your faction suddenly going from "fully supported" to "almost nothing except the odd protagonist of a SIX novel". It seems a curiously spiteful and mean-spirited viewpoint to hold. Its cause you don't worship cygnar as your god and savior or cryx as the devil
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 3, 2017 15:54:18 GMT
I'm not disputing that--though Protectorate have had a lot of awesome stuff since the start of Mk3. The only thing I'm nonplussed by is the people making claims that you're not allowed to complain about your faction suddenly going from "fully supported" to "almost nothing except the odd protagonist of a SIX novel". It seems a curiously spiteful and mean-spirited viewpoint to hold. Its cause you don't worship cygnar as your god and savior or cryx as the devil You got that backwards, Wolfie. -und_ed
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Oct 3, 2017 16:19:30 GMT
Its cause you don't worship cygnar as your god and savior or cryx as the devil You got that backwards, Wolfie.
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