|
Post by Azuresun on Sept 29, 2017 20:56:06 GMT
So I learned from this thread that when other factions get our abilities, it proves that PP doesn't like us, and when we get other factions' abilities, it proves that PP doesn't like us.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on Sept 29, 2017 21:08:32 GMT
So I learned from this thread that when other factions get our abilities, it proves that PP doesn't like us, and when we get other factions' abilities, it proves that PP doesn't like us. FWIW, while there was no way to ask the question without sounding whiny, I was being legitimate. I carry extremely strong knowledge of my own faction, Menoth, but my knowledge of other factions is spotty and based on the limited selection seen at my local meta, and their loss of unique shinies is just much less immediately visible to me.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Sept 30, 2017 2:00:03 GMT
So I learned from this thread that when other factions get our abilities, it proves that PP doesn't like us, and when we get other factions' abilities, it proves that PP doesn't like us. You have to add "And other factions get unique and flavorful abilities which are also strong and contribute to the faction both in terms of flavor and competitiveness". It's not just one of these things. It's everything in combination which shows very strong support for PP not liking/caring about/having any idea what to do with Protectorate. If it was just other factions getting some of our abilities it wouldn't be a big deal. If it was just us getting some rehashed mechanics that are used in other factions it wouldn't be a big deal. If other factions also were suffering from a lack of creativity in design it wouldn't be a big deal. It's all 3 of these things in combination, along with a general categorization of all of our core identity mechanics being NPEs and nuked from orbit, that has caused us to become jaded.
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Sept 30, 2017 12:28:01 GMT
I mean jaga-jaga gets Signs and Portents in the minion CID now (and an absolutely insane assassination feat) so it's not like you're the only ones who are having to share your toys.
Didn't Privateer Press say they were trying to condense the number of unique rules in the game for Mk. III? That's going to mean more models will be sharing rules across factions, and an unfortunate side effect of that is that factions with a higher number of unique rules are more likely to see their unique rules appear elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by djgibraltar on Oct 1, 2017 5:00:22 GMT
we are doing fine in creativity. we have a stable of almost all usable casters that each run completely different lists. now with new theme dump the only caster i feel doesnt have a really awesome place is malekeus. waiting for that fire theme. lol greytemplar not cuz your name has the color do you always have to be so grey. ive been playing im guessing for longer then you. and it doesnt bother me the sharing of abilities cuz i understand the purposes and limitations of game design. if you are being honest right now. on a balance scale assuming the cid changes to deliverers and zealots here is the list of things i think are still in a meh place in the faction. cinerators, bastions repenters malekeus doesnt have a comfortable fit. i want a theme where he can take hand of judgment and that gives a hit buff to fire type weapons. feora 1 i think that might be it. i have used everything else in our faction in mk3. and have gotten use out of every other model in the line. and i feel like my list ideas have continued evolving due to the ever changing meta. i don`t feel like im bored in any way playing menoth and i have played them since right after first book in mk1.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on Oct 1, 2017 13:35:44 GMT
we are doing fine in creativity. we have a stable of almost all usable casters that each run completely different lists. now with new theme dump the only caster i feel doesnt have a really awesome place is malekeus. waiting for that fire theme. lol greytemplar not cuz your name has the color do you always have to be so grey. ive been playing im guessing for longer then you. and it doesnt bother me the sharing of abilities cuz i understand the purposes and limitations of game design. if you are being honest right now. on a balance scale assuming the cid changes to deliverers and zealots here is the list of things i think are still in a meh place in the faction. cinerators, bastions repenters malekeus doesnt have a comfortable fit. i want a theme where he can take hand of judgment and that gives a hit buff to fire type weapons. feora 1 i think that might be it. i have used everything else in our faction in mk3. and have gotten use out of every other model in the line. and i feel like my list ideas have continued evolving due to the ever changing meta. i don`t feel like im bored in any way playing menoth and i have played them since right after first book in mk1. I feel like reznik 1 and feora 2 could be added to that list. Reznik 1 is too unreliable and the way he needs his focus spread is wonky, though a turn where everything works for him is one of the best turns anyone in menoth can get. Feora 2 just doesn't really do much that someone else doesn't do better.
|
|
|
Post by WantonRanger on Oct 1, 2017 17:35:27 GMT
I think kreoss 2 is also in a no-mans land where vindictus does it better. Not sure how you fix him though...
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Oct 1, 2017 18:11:34 GMT
Eh, kreoss2 has a nitch into exactly Fyanna2, Kaya3 and Kayazy spam. All he'd need is something like Crusader's Call and he'd probably be fine, his feat and his castigate-everything spell are both super solid.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Oct 2, 2017 4:32:48 GMT
It's true a lot of our pieces are in an ok place. The problem is that they don't really work together like they should. Protectorate doesn't have the flavor it once had, that being a faction where everything synergizes together in harmony, presenting the opponent with infuriating decisions due to the various denial pathways. A game where the opponent has to choose between multiple choices, and each of them screws with him in some way. A rubix cube which is trying to kill you.
Our powerful pieces just don't have the shiny factor that other factions have. And what powerful stuff we do have isn't as strong as what other factions have. So we get left behind in a place of mediocrity. Every faction except ours has a "WOW!" factor.
As for how long I've been playing. I've been playing this game for about 9 years. I've been around a while.
Malakus is actually a good example of PP's lack of creativity and cohesive design for our faction.
He has a disjointed set of abilities, which are all good individually, but don't add up to anything that makes him a good choice.
His feat means you want to take as many fire guns as possible, both jacks and infantry. But since his entire game plan is hinging on this feat it needs to count. However he doesn't have a to-hit fix beyond Scourge. Which is hideously way too expensive to cast.
Scourge's high focus cost also has skornergy with Open Fire and his feat. You want lots of jacks to get maximum benefit from his feat and Open Fire. But that's taxing his focus reserves dry, even with Wracks and Hierophant. You can't get 3 jacks and extra shot, get Scourge out to knock something down, and give focus to jacks for boosting. And outside of Scourge, your only option for hit fixing is boosting with your jacks. And he does nothing for the Cleansers you also are likely taking.
And as insult to injury, this is why we lost Ancillary Attack...
Malakus doesn't even have much synergy with Eye of Truth. Eye only has a single shot short ranged fire gun. Eye of Truth is amazing, but really only with other casters. With Malakus he doesn't live up to full potential.
|
|
|
Post by WantonRanger on Oct 2, 2017 8:16:26 GMT
Eh, kreoss2 has a nitch into exactly Fyanna2, Kaya3 and Kayazy spam. All he'd need is something like Crusader's Call and he'd probably be fine, his feat and his castigate-everything spell are both super solid. That is a microscopic niche. he wasn't even that playable in MK2 and now he's definitely worse. I am ssuming you were being sarcastic ?as he just has poor versions of other spells. castigate - relevant more to hordes and even then it is too specific (channel and animus only) chasten - worse purify Inviolable resolve - worse defenders ward cleansing fire - protectorate filler sacrosanct - this is a very cool spell The feat is solid but but as an exemplar spam caster he has been given no tools to deliver or protect properly. The models he's supposed to use don't threat far enough or have access to pathfinder without killing themselves. And err exemplar interdiction did literally nothing to help with this - 2" deployment - jokes
|
|
|
Post by WantonRanger on Oct 2, 2017 8:36:02 GMT
It's true a lot of our pieces are in an ok place. The problem is that they don't really work together like they should. Protectorate doesn't have the flavor it once had, that being a faction where everything synergizes together in harmony, presenting the opponent with infuriating decisions due to the various denial pathways. A game where the opponent has to choose between multiple choices, and each of them screws with him in some way. A rubix cube which is trying to kill you. Our powerful pieces just don't have the shiny factor that other factions have. And what powerful stuff we do have isn't as strong as what other factions have. So we get left behind in a place of mediocrity. Every faction except ours has a "WOW!" factor. As for how long I've been playing. I've been playing this game for about 9 years. I've been around a while. Im pretty Malakus is actually a good example of PP's lack of creativity and cohesive design for our faction. He has a disjointed set of abilities, which are all good individually, but don't add up to anything that makes him a good choice. His feat means you want to take as many fire guns as possible, both jacks and infantry. But since his entire game plan is hinging on this feat it needs to count. However he doesn't have a to-hit fix beyond Scourge. Which is hideously way too expensive to cast. Scourge's high focus cost also has skornergy with Open Fire and his feat. You want lots of jacks to get maximum benefit from his feat and Open Fire. But that's taxing his focus reserves dry, even with Wracks and Hierophant. You can't get 3 jacks and extra shot, get Scourge out to knock something down, and give focus to jacks for boosting. And outside of Scourge, your only option for hit fixing is boosting with your jacks. And he does nothing for the Cleansers you also are likely taking. And as insult to injury, this is why we lost Ancillary Attack... Malakus doesn't even have much synergy with Eye of Truth. Eye only has a single shot short ranged fire gun. Eye of Truth is amazing, but really only with other casters. With Malakus he doesn't live up to full potential. I'm pretty sure eye of truth sales will have reflected the fact that they attached basically one of our coolest jacks to one of our worst casters. I sure as hell won't buy the jack during the era of thememachine. I wish protectorate had more than it's current superficial sheen of synergy/cohesiveness. If anyone's played MTG, it's kind of a classic dichotomy: Option 1: a bunch of cards which individually mediocre - combine to be strong with their interactions/synergy I.e. Tribal stuff option 2: just taking the best individual cards and ramming them together to function strongly but with little interaction. themes are an attempt to force synergy through clumping similar unit types but as we can see from exemplar interdiction: >> firstly it doesn't mechanically reward the use of exemplar or provide them with an army synergy... just a points bonus and blessed jack weapons (wtf) >> secondly people just take option 2 above and spam the only good units (KE), however still are forced to take other less functional units like errants and vengers which again, though are all exemplar, have no interaction with other exemplar. this may just be how the game is designed though... it would have been a better theme with some sort of elite/cadre leadership style ability for exemplar over blessed weapons which frankly is just an incredibly pointless non-thematic bonus.
|
|
Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Lanz on Oct 2, 2017 9:03:29 GMT
Eh, kreoss2 has a nitch into exactly Fyanna2, Kaya3 and Kayazy spam. All he'd need is something like Crusader's Call and he'd probably be fine, his feat and his castigate-everything spell are both super solid. That is a microscopic niche. he wasn't even that playable in MK2 and now he's definitely worse. I am ssuming you were being sarcastic ?as he just has poor versions of other spells. castigate - relevant more to hordes and even then it is too specific (channel and animus only) chasten - worse purify Inviolable resolve - worse defenders ward cleansing fire - protectorate filler sacrosanct - this is a very cool spell The feat is solid but but as an exemplar spam caster he has been given no tools to deliver or protect properly. The models he's supposed to use don't threat far enough or have access to pathfinder without killing themselves. And err exemplar interdiction did literally nothing to help with this - 2" deployment - jokes Kreoss2 was playable specifically into his own theme list, and it was absolutely a competitive list. He currently has gained little, however, and the current themes are nothing close to what Crusaders of Sul did for him. They could probably add magnetudes to his playability by just giving some of his Mk2 theme list features to his card. Elite Cadre: Advanced Move for Exemplar would be huge for him.
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Oct 2, 2017 15:14:36 GMT
I have absolutely no problem with factions sharing abilities. The game is too bloated and unwieldy already, and new models getting a mix of well known abilities is a much better option when it comes to understanding the game than them getting a slew of totally new and unknown skills just for the sake of uniqueness.
Actually I wouldn't mind if this crazy variety of, often very similar, options was cut down and distributed fairly evenly among the factions for improved streamlining and balance.
And yeah, mk2 Crusaders of Sul theme was pretty devastating. The mix of Exemplars for hitting and Daughters for jamming was what made it super-playable for me and my mk2 Protectorate staple.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Oct 2, 2017 16:37:00 GMT
Even at the height of his competitiveness in Mk2, Kreoss2 was really just a walking feat. He would upkeep his two spells, camp5, and wait to pop the feat. You'd then have to win the attrition swing with the power of the feat otherwise you'd lose since he didn't do anything outside of that feat. And he had no real ability to deliver the Knights.
That's why Vindictus is a better Exemplar caster. He fixes the main issue Knights have, getting delivered. Kreoss2 just makes them better at what they're already amazing at, killing stuff.
And as I said before, us getting farmed out wouldn't necessarily be a problem if we still had some unique mechanics that were also strong or we just had a good faction flavor.
Feora3 and Malakus are perfect examples of lost opportunities for making cool thematic fire casters. And PP is clearly capable of thinking up cool fire stuff, but they gave it to Kallus2, Horgol2, and Durgan instead.
Literally, read Kallus2s feat text. Change 2 words and it's a protectorate feat. I am 100% convinced that his feat was Feora2's originally, and then they swapped 2 words in the text and gave her the bland thing she has now.
Malakus could have been an awesome ranged gunline caster focusing on fire guns.
Malakus's feat, abilities, and spells should have been something like this,
Special Rules:
Field Marshal- Blazing Wrath: A model with this special rule may charge models suffering the fire continuous effect for free.
Feat: Purgatory- Enemy models in Malakus's control area lose Immunity Fire. Friendly faction models in Malakus's control area gain boosted attack rolls when performing an attack with :Fire Damage:
Spells
Flaming Beacons: Cost 2: Range 8: Upkeep Yes: Off: Yes Target model/unit hit by this spell gain Fuel for the Flames for one round.
Menoth's Fury: Cost 3: Range 6: Upkeep Yes: Off: No Target friendly faction model/unit's ranged weapons gain the Oil special rule.
Open Fire Banishing Ward Immolation
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 2, 2017 18:20:45 GMT
greytemplarI can comment on Kallus 2. He does not work in the Faction he is in. But it can function at a bare minimum level. So if infact it was part of Protectorate instead it would be busted beyond belief. Now, does that mean you've lost something? No! You were never meant to have it in the first place. It would not have been balanced. There's not "ifs" or "buts" about it. Malakus might be the worst caster in a faction of supremely capable caster with fantastic battle group support. I'll trade you Kryssa for Malakus and see how well you make her work. Because with all the fire breathing dragons I can make a ton of use out of his (printed) feat. Just because something isn't perfectly designed to be the most powerful thing to ever hit the table does not mean Protectorate is bad. I'm buying into it because it is clearly better than Legion. I've played one competitive game into Cygnar and it was a fantastic cake walk compared to my normal Legion games...and I screwed up a ton of stuff unpacking my army. Legion into anything warmachine is fighting tooth and nail and begging the opponent to screw up so that I can take advantage of it and maybe swing something back to neutral. "Grass is always greener" syndrome is pretty hard when you don't (seem to) play another faction. I can tell you Cryx, and Khador have it pretty dam green right now and I'm selling them off because I can't stand to play something that egregious against any opponent. Protectorate might not be near them, but that's a good thing. We don't need "everything is balanced because everything is broken" to be the philosophy here. I mean come on; an upkeep to give all of your BATTLE effected guns boosted damage from a min unit of dirt cheap zealots just from an upkeep? Would you accept Cygnar getting a 3d6 lightning damage combo as an UPKEEP? 1 focus trivially everyturn to boost all their lightning damage rolls? Would be totally fun to play against right? You're asking for the moon and when they give you stars (Faithful masses) you scream and bawl "Not good enough!"
|
|