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Post by pvtjoker on Oct 1, 2017 13:45:34 GMT
It's too bad they simply didn't give them ROF2. This would make them a more more specialized ranged unit compared to the trencher LG. Because then people would just complain why don't Trencher Gunners have. How could they lose it? That's not fluffy or some other puling. Still, you look at Reeves for the same points and they have ROF 2 and Hunter with CA giving Go To Ground, and War-tempered (CRA into melee) in exchange for slightly shorter range and less POW. That comparison makes even the Trencher Gunners a little overpriced (well maybe not because of Tough.) I really wish I could see batreps of PP games where they tested Long Gunners just to understand what they are thinking. Maybe the other guy ran a full unit of Winter Guard into open field or something.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 1, 2017 13:59:47 GMT
It's too bad they simply didn't give them ROF2. This would make them a more more specialized ranged unit compared to the trencher LG. Because then people would just complain why don't Trencher Gunners have. How could they lose it? That's not fluffy or some other puling. Still, you look at Reeves for the same points and they have ROF 2 and Hunter with CA giving Go To Ground, and War-tempered (CRA into melee) in exchange for slightly shorter range and less POW. That comparison makes even the Trencher Gunners a little overpriced (well maybe not because of Tough.) I really wish I could see batreps of PP games where they tested Long Gunners just to understand what they are thinking. Maybe the other guy ran a full unit of Winter Guard into open field or something. Else just a hordes of Mechanithralls, without any ranged support. But even Stormguard Infantry is quite useful in the same situation. -_-; The perfect example of the price of flat ROF 2 is Reeves, as you pointed out. POW 10 can chew most infantry ARM, but POW 8 doesn't and they need a minimum CRA by default in the most times. Since Dual Shot is a significant ability on them(as well as a trap), I don't think that it would be removed so easily.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Oct 1, 2017 15:30:57 GMT
There's also Trollkin Highwaymen with base ROF2, but they're range 8 and really not that great, so, maybe the comparison isn't so strong there.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 1, 2017 16:22:26 GMT
droopingpuppyPracticed Maneuvers lets them see through each other for CRA and I also assumed they still had Dual Shot to double their output. Not saying my idea is great, just clarifying my intent.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 1, 2017 17:26:38 GMT
droopingpuppy Practiced Maneuvers lets them see through each other for CRA and I also assumed they still had Dual Shot to double their output. Not saying my idea is great, just clarifying my intent. And you will know that they have to be spread out in order to avoid to make a mass grave by a single AOE shot. CMD 7 makes it not so easy, but they need to. Dual Shot is only work on the paper, and if you really want to use it you need to put much more resource and you better spend the resource to elsewhere... and you need to meet the good matchup but the opponent choose it, not you.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 15:51:56 GMT
Yeah, this is basically why they are so hard to balance. Like, they are pretty strong on paper. Getting 22 shots per turn is just crazy good, CRA is great. Yadda, yadda. It's all great. So you have this massive balancing issue. I think one thing they could do to separate them from Trencher Long Gunners is to maybe get rid of CRA. If you did that you could drop their point cost waaaayyy down. Maybe even have them go back to speed 5. Whatever. Just make them super crappy but super cheap. Maybe like 6/11 if you made them shitty enough. Alternatively, getting rid of their boosted attack rolls and giving them black penny or some sort of other buff might be super sweet. They aren't bad in any traditional sense, they are very, very strong on paper. But the table state, your opponent's list composition, your ability to get enemies in range, etc, etc are all highly dependent on them being useful; that's the limiting factor. So make them into the ranged version of Sword Knights/Steelhead Riflemen? This is gonna be weird, but what if you gave them inaccurate, base Practiced Maneuvers, and dropped their cost? Aiming 2-man CRAs gets you 10 RAT5 POW12 shots, 6 RAT6 POW13 shots, or 2 RAT7 POW15 shots. I don't know. I really don't. They seem difficult to balance. Maybe make their guns POW8? Maybe take away CRA from the unit? You gotta have something to drop their point cost. They are likely still overpriced now but I think making them worse and dropping their point cost will simply make them worse and less good in other ways. So maybe you give them some sort of benefit? Like Hunter or something? I don't know. I look at them and am flummoxed because, let's be real, they are really good against certain armies and on certain tables. Maybe give them AD? Maybe if they fire two shots they create a cloud? They need a total rework. But, then again, maybe not. Maybe they are destined to be bad.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 16:01:12 GMT
There's also Trollkin Highwaymen with base ROF2, but they're range 8 and really not that great, so, maybe the comparison isn't so strong there. Trollkin Highwaymen don't have ROF2, they have two pistols. A small quibble, yes, but it matters. And Range 8 is sad. They are also RAT5, which really matters on a Range8 unit. Also, remember they are medium bases so it's more difficult to get meaningful CRAs. I do think Highwaymen are decent, Pathfinder goes a long way (and lord knows they'd be almost unplayable without it!), but something tells me both units are in the same state of being nearly unplayable.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 2, 2017 16:13:16 GMT
What about giving them back covering fire, but in a wall form instead of a circle? I know Chain Gun already does it, but 14+" is a benefit. It could also be a special order/action where every X Long Gunner increases the POW of the shot taken for entering/ending within it.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 16:18:12 GMT
What about giving them back covering fire, but in a wall form instead of a circle? I know Chain Gun already does it, but 14+" is a benefit. It could also be a special order/action where every X Long Gunner increases the POW of the shot taken for entering/ending within it. You wanna have them lose reposition 5 to gain that?
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Post by Sarcastastic on Oct 2, 2017 16:21:44 GMT
You're right, my bad. I do think Highwaymen have lots of potential. They could do two massive death CRA lasers, but as you said, getting all of them in on it is a Herculean task, especially in a faction devoid of tactician in mk3, as well as PP thinking a solo that grants them backstab is support.
But on the topic of Cygnar, rng 14 helps on that front, but as was said elsewhere, they're too static and do what others do better. If I'm bringing a bunch of guns I'm wanting to put snipe on anyway, I'll just use Trencher Infantry. Vastly different output and roles, I know, but Trenchers I actually get use out of.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 16:28:41 GMT
You're right, my bad. I do think Highwaymen have lots of potential. They could do two massive death CRA lasers, but as you said, getting all of them in on it is a Herculean task, especially in a faction devoid of tactician in mk3, as well as PP thinking a solo that grants them backstab is support. But on the topic of Cygnar, rng 14 helps on that front, but as was said elsewhere, they're too static and do what others do better. If I'm bringing a bunch of guns I'm wanting to put snipe on anyway, I'll just use Trencher Infantry. Vastly different output and roles, I know, but Trenchers I actually get use out of. If they really want to separate them from Trencher Long Gunners maybe do something with their goggles. See how the art for LGs has them wearing goggles but the Trencher Long Gunners do not? You could add some fluffy flavor text as to why. Maybe they ignore concealment. Or maybe they get boosted attack rolls against living models (have them lose trained fire if this happens?). Maybe they gain hunter. I don't know.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 2, 2017 17:03:35 GMT
Anyway, the point is, Dual Shot is only work on the paper or you need overcosted supports and/or good matchup.
Honestly, you will know that RNG 14 model can have quite good chance to aim in the real games, and I don't deny it. But see the case of Long Gunners. Their first shot in the game is rarely benefit by aim, as well as the vast majority of shooter models. Usually, models with RNG 14 weapon first advances then shoot the enemy, and in the following turn they are aim and shoot.
The question is, is Long Gunner Infantry survives after the turn they advances then shoots?
Against no ranged threat and no long range charge method, it is quite easy actually. But remember that even Stormguard Infantry is useful in the similar situation. In the real games you will see some ranged threat, both infantry rifle and AOE, and cheap jammers that able to run and in melee with them. The most important thing is, your opponent choose to bring either of them, not you.
Yes, Long Gunner Infantry seems that they are designed to be protected by the others. But, if you can protect them, then will they give you enough reward?
All you got for two turns are 30 RNG 10 POW 10 shots, or less numbers of CRAs.... by spend 16 points and also need for further things to protect them. About 10 points worth Trencher Infantry would increase the minimum invest for the module by 26 points, which is far expensive than two Hunters.
The most ridiculous thing is we got Trencher Long Gunners that are able to gain Cover for one turn, which means that they are able to keep alive for one turn and buy enough time to actually use Dual Shot next turn, and all you need is just add a CA to them.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 2, 2017 17:37:15 GMT
What about giving them back covering fire, but in a wall form instead of a circle? I know Chain Gun already does it, but 14+" is a benefit. It could also be a special order/action where every X Long Gunner increases the POW of the shot taken for entering/ending within it. You wanna have them lose reposition 5 to gain that? I was talking about the base unit for the entirety of this thread, but sure why not?
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 17:57:16 GMT
You wanna have them lose reposition 5 to gain that? I was talking about the base unit for the entirety of this thread, but sure why not? It might be better. Reposition 5" is pretty decent but, geeze, I don't know. I can see covering fire being pretty good. One more option I don't think anyone has considered, maybe a special rule on the CA like: Superior Firepower - At anytime during this model's activation choose one scenario element within this model's command range. This unit contests the chosen element so long as it remains in play.Or, something like that. Giving them some sort of scenario play that doesn't require their 12/12 stats and long range guns to commit.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Oct 2, 2017 18:35:38 GMT
If anything, the Trencher Long Gunners prove that it is possible to balance a unit like the LGs. Problem is that the TLG are priced as premium troops, and have the stats for it. The standard LGs are supposed to be cheap fodder, but they are required to have Dual Shot, range 14 pow 10, and CRA by design. You can't make them cheap because those rules are very strong.
So instead they are pricey, have some good rules, but are super fragile and static.
Unfortunately, they will never lose Dual Shot, CRA, or the range 14 pow 10. Those are fluff based. PP won't change the way the Repeating Long Rifle works.
My preference would be: -Make them Rat 4 -Make them Spd 5 -Give them a rule "This model cannot make ranged attacks unless participating in a CRA". -Change their Dual Shot rule out for "Rank and File: This model may make an additional ranged attack each turn that it is b2b with another member of its unit" -Change point cost to 11 or 12
CA changes: -Point cost becomes 3 -Lose Trained Fire -Lose Flawless Maneuvers -Gain Tactics: Repo 3
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