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Post by scarecrow on Sept 27, 2017 13:15:33 GMT
Barring some Long Gunner theme force that helps them significantly, is there any reason to ever take Long Gunner Infantry over Trencher Long Gunners? Comparing the two units is awfully lopsided.
For a mere two points in difference you get +2 MAT, +1 RAT, +1 DEF, +2 ARM, +2 P+S and tough right out of the gate.
They are in a good theme force and count towards points that get can you free solos that make them even better with Veteran Leader (Finn) and/or Tactician with a variety of other abilities as well (Hitch). Hitch and Finn for free essentially replaces the regular Long Gunner CA since aiming paired CRAs at RAT 11 don't really need boosted attack rolls and Hitch provides tactician anyways. Then the Trencher Long Gunner CA adds rerolled damage rolls and column placement on top of that for the same 4 point cost.
When I think that Advance Deployment on the Hunter was apparently worth 1 point, the Trencher Long Gunners get better in every conceivable way for only 2 points.
Is there something I'm missing in some weird niche where Long Gunner Infantry would possibly be the better choice, or at least a reasonable alternative? I'd rather not leave my unit in the case for several more years.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 27, 2017 13:19:21 GMT
You are not missing anything, they are utter trash and the Trencher Longgunners just make them more obsolete. I expect to see them rolled into Heavy Metal when the new set of themes drop, as part of PPs promise to get everything into a theme, but even then they will be a pile of useless toss.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 27, 2017 13:27:31 GMT
They're bad, and having no theme that actaully wants them hurts. Trencher LGs made the problem worse.
PP had a whole CID cycle to fix them, but they were pretty much untouched.
Unless they get some drastic changes, I doubt I will ever buy them.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Sept 27, 2017 14:36:51 GMT
You are not missing anything, the continued existence of long gunners is bemusing.
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Post by pvtjoker on Sept 27, 2017 14:42:23 GMT
I have a nicely painted squad of Long Gunners that saw the halcyon days of Mark I where they were good and Gun Mages were horrible. Then Mark II came along and Gun Mages outshone their mundane, double-tapping brethren so I bought a squad of them. Now we have Mark III and both squads just stay in the bag. It is a little frustrating.
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Post by scarecrow on Sept 27, 2017 14:53:24 GMT
I have a nicely painted squad of Long Gunners that saw the halcyon days of Mark I where they were good and Gun Mages were horrible. Then Mark II came along and Gun Mages outshone their mundane, double-tapping brethren so I bought a squad of them. Now we have Mark III and both squads just stay in the bag. It is a little frustrating. I played Khador in MkI and the Gun Mages were amazing. Cortex damage shots made my heavies paperweights on the table. The most frustrating part to me is the release of an "identical" unit that is simply superior in every way. Clearly there is a way to design them to be in a good spot on the power curve. Whatever niche Long Gunners previously might have fit into, Trencher Long Gunners simply do it better and expand the role at the same time. Hell, if TLG get engaged they can still potentially even hold their own at Mat 7 with P+S 9 trench knives. I don't want to be so negative about it, but it's simply astounding the disparity that exists between the two units.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Sept 27, 2017 15:02:05 GMT
Scarecrow hit the nail on the head for me. I am now trying to figure out how to sculpt the regular long gunners into trencher long gunners. Last time I did any sculpting was in art class back in Elementary school... some 25 years ago
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 27, 2017 15:06:24 GMT
to be fair to PP in their Primecast about Gravediggers they did talk about Long Gunners being seen as an antiquated institution, and under Julius they were being folded in the Trencher Corp in an effort to modernise them, so maybe it is fluffy that they don't see the table anymore, as they are ceasing to exist at all...
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Post by jpgreat1 on Sept 27, 2017 15:30:51 GMT
to be fair to PP in their Primecast about Gravediggers they did talk about Long Gunners being seen as an antiquated institution, and under Julius they were being folded in the Trencher Corp in an effort to modernise them, so maybe it is fluffy that they don't see the table anymore, as they are ceasing to exist at all... Then what they should do as opposed to coming out with a completely new unit that forces people to buy them in order to use them (or in my case attempt to sculpt) they should allow a UA to be attach to the long gunners and then the long gunners become trencher long gunners.
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Post by scarecrow on Sept 27, 2017 15:44:55 GMT
Or release a unit option like the Silver Line. A trencher backpack kit would be enough without needing a whole new sculpt. They could even still release the Trencher Long Gunner Command Attachment as a completely new/separate model.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Sept 27, 2017 17:30:16 GMT
The problem is that even trencher LGs don't really stand out, at least IMO. They are okay-ish, but nothing more. Cost a ton, shoot good only if they remain static, can't shoot at stalth and require full unit to deal out good damage against heavies. As soon as 4/5 of them drop they start doing almost nothing against good ARM values. At least they have some blast protection.
Normal LGs are just super weak. They don't have a single use, well they can clear infantry but we have tools to do it butter using less army points.
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Post by bluebarren on Sept 27, 2017 20:39:28 GMT
The problem is that even trencher LGs don't really stand out, at least IMO. They are okay-ish, but nothing more. Cost a ton, shoot good only if they remain static, can't shoot at stalth and require full unit to deal out good damage against heavies. As soon as 4/5 of them drop they start doing almost nothing against good ARM values. At least they have some blast protection. Normal LGs are just super weak. They don't have a single use, well they can clear infantry but we have tools to do it butter using less army points. Theyre rng 14 rat 6, that's pretty solid shooting, and if they're static they can lay down a ton of hurt AND are very accurate. I agree that they've got some easy counters and a unit that wants to be that static is even easier to counter still. I have little love for long gunners, but I think it's disingenuous to say that TLGs only shoot ok-ish, especially when you factor in all the other synergies that you can bring into gravediggers (like the dog, finn, and/or Hitch).
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 27, 2017 21:20:54 GMT
A combination of Marksman, re-rolling damage rolls and grevious wounds from an express teams (plus possible knockdown) makes me want to try Trencher long gunners scalping out spirits and cortexes
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 28, 2017 0:39:33 GMT
The problem is that even trencher LGs don't really stand out, at least IMO. They are okay-ish, but nothing more. Cost a ton, shoot good only if they remain static, can't shoot at stalth and require full unit to deal out good damage against heavies. As soon as 4/5 of them drop they start doing almost nothing against good ARM values. At least they have some blast protection. Normal LGs are just super weak. They don't have a single use, well they can clear infantry but we have tools to do it butter using less army points. Not really. A regular unit that has RNG 14 weapon, RAT 6, CRA and DEF 13 make them worthwhile. Also, unlike Long Gunner Infantry they can actually make Dual Shot too if you add the CA(it is mandatory, though). At least they can shoot three times by two turns because they can survives enemy shooting at least for one round. That's enough for them, and what Long Gunner Infantry needed.
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Post by gobber on Sept 28, 2017 2:48:29 GMT
While they still weren't great, I did do some cid games with normal longgunners in kingmaker (pmags and damiano). The unled unit for 16pts wasn't awful; though I'd liked to have seen a drop to 9/15 and a 3pt ua with some tweaks
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