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Post by dazzla on Sept 20, 2017 22:08:44 GMT
Hi
I am thinking about purchasing a second hand retribution army. I currently play Menoth and Cygnar. My main concern is that most lists I play against now days are jack spam (Amon, khador) or include lots of beasts. The power of Ret jacks seems to top out at 17. I know sentinels and MHSF can crack armour. Overall though, how do you find playing into jack and beast spam. Thanks for any feedback
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Sept 20, 2017 23:43:06 GMT
I will throw in there that though most of our jacks cap at PS 17 that is not factoring in Arcanist Mechanics and Concentrated Power which adds +2 to that, mechanics are allowed in every theme so far and are a staple of the faction. Moving past that both Vyros1 and Vyros2 do well into armor skews. V1 gives all of his jacks Flank on feat turn giving them an extra dice of damage and of course V2 has Synergy which is always really nice.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102 
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Post by SeBM on Sept 21, 2017 3:30:59 GMT
Play Rahn, profit?
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Post by fedeii on Sept 21, 2017 6:56:35 GMT
Well. Banshee and Manticore have base pow 18.
Elara2 can also increase the jacks damage output significantly, between scything touch and the extra focus from boundless charge.
Helynna's hand of destruction, as well as Issyria's feat, is another pretty strong damage (and accuracy) buff.
We do have several buff, all stacking on concentrated power.
I would also add that khador's jacks would nearly always be charged, and that our infantry is much better at destroying jacks than our jacks (dedenders are another good damage choice,if they can be protected).
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Sept 21, 2017 9:03:19 GMT
During most of mk2, Retribution used Dawnguard Sentinels and Halberdiers on mini-feat to deal with high ARM. As fedeii said, the infantry approach still works.
Into Khador, with their low DEF on heavies, Heavy Rifle Teams and Ghost Snipers also do reliable damage (about 16 damage a turn to ARM 20 if we assume average rolls).
The main problem with Khador is that they have access to a decent amount of Snipers, which can really make it hard to use single wound models against them. If you face those lists, Vyros2 in Forges of War might be your best option.
Amon with Dervishes is a very different problem. Where Vyros2 can work into Khador, the Dervish spam generally outperforms Vyros' Griffons. Rahn in a spell-centric list fares even worse...
You need magical attacks if you want to shoot the Lights off the board, so our Heavy Warjacks and the Battle Engine become attractive. I haven't tried a Thyron list into it yet but I suspect Protectorate will loathe Spell Piercer.
Alternatively you can try to out-threat the Dervishes and get a devastating alpha strike. Issyria and Elara2 can make Halberdiers threaten 15" with a Thane and with feat/mini-feat they will pack a punch. Sentinels do more damage and might be a viable second wave.
Another local player has had some success with Kaelyssa. If she aims, she can get her Stationary shot off on Dervishes despite them being engaged and this significantly changes your options. The list I saw had an AFG, two Banshees and full Halberdiers + CA + Thane. Kaelyssa's feat means you can generally avoid the alpha strike (which I think is important when facing Amon).
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Post by dazzla on Sept 21, 2017 13:50:19 GMT
Thanks all for the well considered responses.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Sept 21, 2017 15:55:18 GMT
Against Menoth, Ossyan in Defenders with a Battle Engine, a Banshee and an Hydra will work pretty well. Add a unit of Halberdiers, some Riflemen and a unit of Stormfall Archers. Sure, they can be protected for a round but they'll need to engage at one point and then you shoot them and finish them off with the Halberdiers. I think Rahn also has game into anything but Amon. Sure, they can use the no spell from the Choir, but then, they are vulnerable to the Helios gun. If they protect themselves from the gun, then they are vulnerable to the spells. Finally, the caster kill is always possible with Rahn.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Sept 22, 2017 3:10:46 GMT
Here's how I would go about this:
My current tournament pair has two Shadows of the Retribution armies. The Elara2 version has lots of cheap myrmidons and melee infantry, while the Kaelyssa version has lots of shooty myrmidons and Strike Force.
If my opponent had Karchev I would take Kaelyssa every time, as Karchev is horribly vulnerable to being shot to death. In fact, I would normally take Kaelyssa against any jack-spam army, as, although ARM 20 warjacks are tough nuts for Strike Force to crack, Khadoran warcasters are usually pretty easy to assassinate, especially in a jack-heavy army where they will lack units to screen or get in the way.
The exception to this, of course, is the Butcher, in any of his incarnations. My particular Kaelyssa army isn't hopeless against the Butcher, but it can struggle, especially if there are clamjacks involved. In that case I would take Elara2, as a souped-up Manticore can inflict serious damage on a clamjack, and even the Butcher has to be wary of a Mage Hunter Assassin buffed by Elara.
In the game itself my strategy would generally be to hold the center of the board with my battlegroup and press the flanks with my infantry. By pressing the flanks I would force the Khadoran player to spread out which jack-heavy armies don't want to do. If the Khadorans spread out that can leave an opening for my battlegroup to exploit; if they don't spread out I can look for a scenario advantage or attack their support pieces.
At no point do I want to engage the Khadorans in a frontal fight, and I really don't to trade pieces with them. A battle of attrition is exactly what the Khadorans want, so I would rely on maneuver instead. Jack spam can be a difficult army to defeat because it forces you to play differently, but most armies have the tools to do it. You just have to know what your victory conditions are and always move towards them - and your victory condition is never destroying all of the warjacks! Look for scenario, look for assassination. Exploit the enemy's lack of flexibility and make him respond to you.
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