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Post by Aegis on Sept 19, 2017 4:10:52 GMT
A cloudwall usually only needs to work once to be effective though. If I lose the trenchos to deliver my army that's fine. There are also plenty of caster cloudwalls in the game; Zerkova, Kolgrima, High Reclaimer, Jarl, esevvy, (to a lesser extent zaadesh and rasheth) can all do a fine job of clouding by themselves. Then there's Khador's repositioning kodiaks (esp. hark/malakov/karchev), ternion, and extra clouds on malakov/ow2. Thags and durst can do backfield clouds, any PoD list has the option via shamans. Rask and Coven get feats and veil. True, but in the specific case of Kraye, the cloud wall main damage isn't that it blocks shooting and allows a melee army to deliver, but that it blocks charges and so removes one of the big pro points of Kraye. If you kill the cloud wall on the approaching turn, maybe you won't still do much damage shooting, but at least the turn after you will be able to use your threat range. Anyway, the main point is that I think that Kraye doesn't lose much from going to SoT instead of HM. Sure, HM nets more solos, but the extra solos aren't exactly what Kraye wants (he doesn't like to share his jacks, so having tons of free journeymans doesn't help much), and he is still focus stripped enough to not really needing to go 100 points on just warjacks. Taking 70 point of Warjacks and 30 points of gunmages suits him fine, nets him the solos he really wants, and allows him to cover more holes. Do not forget that having some units around is also good for scoring in the new SR, and having a bigger # of shots helps to deal with infantry while a mono-jacks usually has some problems with that, so another gain over HM.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 5:46:56 GMT
Seems like maybe some games should be played and reported back on...
I do like the theory of Kraye in SoT, and think there are some builds that can work, but he probably just plays into a somewhat different set of match-ups than heavy metal?
Side note: I don't see unbuffed gun mages reliably removing Haley's cloud wall in one turn. they need 8s to hit.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 19, 2017 6:02:56 GMT
I have actually played a game of Kraye in SotT, my package was Min Blazers, Black 13th and 2 x GMCA, that netted me a free Squire and Arlan which was all I wanted, and I still had plenty of jacks. As people have hypothesised, GMCAs are great no just for the feat turn, but also applying Flare on non feat turns, allowing the rest of Krayes list to focus things down from range and reposition all over the place
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 19, 2017 6:03:02 GMT
A cloudwall usually only needs to work once to be effective though. If I lose the trenchos to deliver my army that's fine. There are also plenty of caster cloudwalls in the game; Zerkova, Kolgrima, High Reclaimer, Jarl, esevvy, (to a lesser extent zaadesh and rasheth) can all do a fine job of clouding by themselves. Then there's Khador's repositioning kodiaks (esp. hark/malakov/karchev), ternion, and extra clouds on malakov/ow2. Thags and durst can do backfield clouds, any PoD list has the option via shamans. Rask and Coven get feats and veil. True, but in the specific case of Kraye, the cloud wall main damage isn't that it blocks shooting and allows a melee army to deliver, but that it blocks charges and so removes one of the big pro points of Kraye. If you kill the cloud wall on the approaching turn, maybe you won't still do much damage shooting, but at least the turn after you will be able to use your threat range. Anyway, the main point is that I think that Kraye doesn't lose much from going to SoT instead of HM. Sure, HM nets more solos, but the extra solos aren't exactly what Kraye wants (he doesn't like to share his jacks, so having tons of free journeymans doesn't help much), and he is still focus stripped enough to not really needing to go 100 points on just warjacks. Taking 70 point of Warjacks and 30 points of gunmages suits him fine, nets him the solos he really wants, and allows him to cover more holes. Do not forget that having some units around is also good for scoring in the new SR, and having a bigger # of shots helps to deal with infantry while a mono-jacks usually has some problems with that, so another gain over HM. I mean kraye wants the squire, for extra Ctrl and focus. He wants Arlan (for access to magical attacks and more focus) and he probably wants a junior (unless you think you can get away without arcane shield on something like a centurion. So the idea thay he "doesn't want the solos" is pretty much down to the second junior. You could play 30 points of gun mages to take models that he doesn't directly synergise with in order to get his required support staff or you could get them for free when playing 50 points of jacks.
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Post by mydnight on Sept 19, 2017 6:31:48 GMT
Kraye may skip Jr if so desired. Admonition and speedy centurions, and countermeasures makes the Jr crutch less important.
I do think however that Heavy Metal with ironclad/centurion spam is golden with him, with some ranged thrown in to trigger feat.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 19, 2017 6:37:26 GMT
True, but in the specific case of Kraye, the cloud wall main damage isn't that it blocks shooting and allows a melee army to deliver, but that it blocks charges and so removes one of the big pro points of Kraye. If you kill the cloud wall on the approaching turn, maybe you won't still do much damage shooting, but at least the turn after you will be able to use your threat range. Anyway, the main point is that I think that Kraye doesn't lose much from going to SoT instead of HM. Sure, HM nets more solos, but the extra solos aren't exactly what Kraye wants (he doesn't like to share his jacks, so having tons of free journeymans doesn't help much), and he is still focus stripped enough to not really needing to go 100 points on just warjacks. Taking 70 point of Warjacks and 30 points of gunmages suits him fine, nets him the solos he really wants, and allows him to cover more holes. Do not forget that having some units around is also good for scoring in the new SR, and having a bigger # of shots helps to deal with infantry while a mono-jacks usually has some problems with that, so another gain over HM. I mean kraye wants the squire, for extra Ctrl and focus. He wants Arlan (for access to magical attacks and more focus) and he probably wants a junior (unless you think you can get away without arcane shield on something like a centurion. So the idea thay he "doesn't want the solos" is pretty much down to the second junior. You could play 30 points of gun mages to take models that he doesn't directly synergise with in order to get his required support staff or you could get them for free when playing 50 points of jacks. SoT allows for Squire, Arlan and JR and you can take them for free if you want. It's all up to you if you prefer paying for the cheaper ones (like Arlan) to get more free Gun Mages solos, or if you want to include the GM solos in the 30 points of gun mages and get the jack support for free. Also, JR is debatable. It could be there but could also be left home depending on preference and on the specific list. I like Admonitioned Centurions more than AS Centurions as an example.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Sept 19, 2017 7:22:51 GMT
I have tried Kraye several times in heavy metal. Probably my bad play, but i have had some problems getting the feat of in some games. A few games have been against menoth Jack spam, where the choir no non-magic shooting, makes it difficult to get the feat working. Maybe gun mages would be handy there... My oppenents which have shooting, have also been focus firing on my light warjacks ala chargers to deny shooting on my feat turn.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 19, 2017 8:00:10 GMT
One Heavy Metal list I want to try with Kraye is
Kraye (Heavy Metal) - Squire (free) - Defender - Defender - Hammersmith - Hammersmith - Charger - Charger
Junior (free) Arlan (free) - Sentinel Runewood
Max Sword Knights - CA
Everything but Juniors Sentinel has Reposition 3 or 5, and pretty much everything has pathfinder. The idea would be to just soften up from range, screen with the Sword Knights if appropriate, and deliver Hammersmiths to face
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 19, 2017 12:52:25 GMT
Is Jakes2 too weak or simply too new? She doesn't seem that terrible on paper, if slightly handicapped by the non-Swannish tactic of smashing the opposition's face in. She is playable, but annoying to do so and is inferior to the others. She needs a jack heavy list but she lacks focus to fuel the jacks. Also she lacks units choices as well. And Stryker2, Nemos or even Stryker3 do something better than her. Just for using more armors, Nemo or Stryker3 is simply the better choice. If you want a combined arms forces, you need to pick either Stryker1 or 2, but not Jakes2 if you can bring these casters instead. Not to mention that Jakes1 has the superior spells than her captain version, and every Cygnar warcaster save for Jakes2 can call her and make the better result than choose Jakes2 as your sole warcaster option.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 13:56:25 GMT
I have actually played a game of Kraye in SotT, my package was Min Blazers, Black 13th and 2 x GMCA, that netted me a free Squire and Arlan which was all I wanted, and I still had plenty of jacks. As people have hypothesised, GMCAs are great no just for the feat turn, but also applying Flare on non feat turns, allowing the rest of Krayes list to focus things down from range and reposition all over the place I like that package for kraye. I find that preferable to gun mages. I am gonna steal that.
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 20, 2017 17:23:35 GMT
Caster | Storm Division | Heavy Metal | Gravediggers | Sons of the Tempest | Brisbane 1 | X, 3 | X, 2 |
| X, 3 | Brisbane 2 | X, 2 |
| X, 1 | | Caine 3 |
| X,2 |
| | Haley 1 |
| X, 2 | X, 2 | X, 3 | Haley 2 | X, 2 | X, 1 |
| | Haley 3 |
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| X, 1 | | Kraye |
| X, 1 |
| | Nemo 3 | X, 2 | X, 1 |
| | Sloan 1 |
| X, 1 |
| | Stryker 1 | X, 1 | X, 1 | X, 2 | | Stryker 2 | X, 1 | X, 3 | X, 2 |
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Above is a little Matrix of the casters who I think we are going to see being a part of Cygnar competitive play going forward. I believe that the casters outside of this list (Blaize, Caine 1, Caine 2, Darius, Jakes 2, Maddox, Nemo 1, Nemo 2, Stryker 3 and Sturgis) are too lacking to be considered for serious competitive play, mainly because they lack a unique game or set of tactics compared to other options. Octavious, I read your list of "non-competitive" casters and am...stunned. Flabbergasted. While I think that some of them are middling I think others are really solid. First, Darius really brings a unique skill set to the table. You have to know when to drop him and when you cannot. But I think Darius is a serious contender that is overlooked by the Cygnar meta. I've played him in MKiii in various builds and I've found him to be very strong when dropped into the correct pairs. Maddox - I don't think Maddox is anything more than middling but she's a very real consideration in a pairing. Pathfinder and armor cracking are not things Cygnar can simply ignore. I've played Maddox competitively in MKiii and think she offers some things that don't knock her into the "unplayable" category. Lastly, your dismissal of Nemo1 is just ******* wrong. My record with the old man is better than any record I have with any other caster in Cygnar in competitive matches. I took him to Lock and Load and didn't lose a single Nemo1 match in two tournaments. Yes, Haley2 was my main, but the old man is chock full of answers. Decel, 12 focus, a +2 strength spell, a 2 cost nuke that ***** over colossals. None of that can be dismissed. He runs Heavy Metal, our best theme, better than anyone. He takes out best heavy (Dynamo) and gives him four focus turn after turn. Too many Swans have utterly dismissed Nemo1 in MKiii to their detriment. In regards to Jakes, she's really bad, I keep trying to make her work but she doesn't and I remain flabbergasted at what PP saw in her during their internal testing. Connie is middling and helped by Storm Division, which she actually runs pretty well (But Maddox prolly does similar things better). I think Caine1 might have a place, Cory Doyle has played him with success, but I won't tell anyone he's the answer to your problems.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 21, 2017 4:17:29 GMT
Caster | Storm Division | Heavy Metal | Gravediggers | Sons of the Tempest | Brisbane 1 | X, 3 | X, 2 |
| X, 3 | Brisbane 2 | X, 2 |
| X, 1 | | Caine 3 |
| X,2 |
| | Haley 1 |
| X, 2 | X, 2 | X, 3 | Haley 2 | X, 2 | X, 1 |
| | Haley 3 |
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| X, 1 | | Kraye |
| X, 1 |
| | Nemo 3 | X, 2 | X, 1 |
| | Sloan 1 |
| X, 1 |
| | Stryker 1 | X, 1 | X, 1 | X, 2 | | Stryker 2 | X, 1 | X, 3 | X, 2 |
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Above is a little Matrix of the casters who I think we are going to see being a part of Cygnar competitive play going forward. I believe that the casters outside of this list (Blaize, Caine 1, Caine 2, Darius, Jakes 2, Maddox, Nemo 1, Nemo 2, Stryker 3 and Sturgis) are too lacking to be considered for serious competitive play, mainly because they lack a unique game or set of tactics compared to other options. Octavious, I read your list of "non-competitive" casters and am...stunned. Flabbergasted. While I think that some of them are middling I think others are really solid. First, Darius really brings a unique skill set to the table. You have to know when to drop him and when you cannot. But I think Darius is a serious contender that is overlooked by the Cygnar meta. I've played him in MKiii in various builds and I've found him to be very strong when dropped into the correct pairs. Maddox - I don't think Maddox is anything more than middling but she's a very real consideration in a pairing. Pathfinder and armor cracking are not things Cygnar can simply ignore. I've played Maddox competitively in MKiii and think she offers some things that don't knock her into the "unplayable" category. Lastly, your dismissal of Nemo1 is just ******* wrong. My record with the old man is better than any record I have with any other caster in Cygnar in competitive matches. I took him to Lock and Load and didn't lose a single Nemo1 match in two tournaments. Yes, Haley2 was my main, but the old man is chock full of answers. Decel, 12 focus, a +2 strength spell, a 2 cost nuke that ***** over colossals. None of that can be dismissed. He runs Heavy Metal, our best theme, better than anyone. He takes out best heavy (Dynamo) and gives him four focus turn after turn. Too many Swans have utterly dismissed Nemo1 in MKiii to their detriment. In regards to Jakes, she's really bad, I keep trying to make her work but she doesn't and I remain flabbergasted at what PP saw in her during their internal testing. Connie is middling and helped by Storm Division, which she actually runs pretty well (But Maddox prolly does similar things better). I think Caine1 might have a place, Cory Doyle has played him with success, but I won't tell anyone he's the answer to your problems. Non competitive isn't the same as bad. Being competitive is a combination of power, reliability and niche. You need to be strong, be strong consistently and be strong consistently while not having someone who is stronger or more consistent than you. Darius is not consistent and doesn't have a niche, imo. He has a set of spells that benefits heavies but a feat that rarely works on anything except colossals and only if your opponent committed and didn't kill them, which already says a non reliably game plan. Darius is playable, you can pack him with cygnar heavies and colossals and feel OK, but he doesn't do this better than, say, nemo 3 or Haley 2 or kraye who can play cygnar Warjack lines brilliantly. They have feats while Darius doesn't. They have better abilities or spells than Darius, especially since they all buff Cygnars ranged game better than Darius. I love Maddox, she's been my girl since the start of mk 3 and I've gone very successfully with her but I think with the storm lance nerf and the increase in infantry (as well as access to rhupert), Maddox brings less than her direct competitors in Siege 2 and Stryker 2. The fact that Brickhouse isn't a very good jack compounds this problem. Nemo 1 is much like Darius. He has spells that buff jacks but I am not convinced that he does it better than his competitors. He has no feat and has a habit of falling over dead.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 21, 2017 5:17:48 GMT
Octavius, how is Brickhouse not very good? I'd agree he has only very little synergy with Maddox, but his actual rules are very solid. Force Hold is brutal against 1" reach models. And he's basically immune to shooting.
For Maddox, he seems like a great Assail target. It increases his charge threat far enough for him to actually lock stuff in place.
His damage output is only slightly better than an Ironclad, sure, but he has serious control and durability.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 21, 2017 13:15:45 GMT
Octavius, how is Brickhouse not very good? I'd agree he has only very little synergy with Maddox, but his actual rules are very solid. Force Hold is brutal against 1" reach models. And he's basically immune to shooting. For Maddox, he seems like a great Assail target. It increases his charge threat far enough for him to actually lock stuff in place. His damage output is only slightly better than an Ironclad, sure, but he has serious control and durability. If you aren't available outside of your caster and lack synergies with that Caster then that is a death sentence for a character jack. When talking about Brickhouse, though, I don't find him especially resilient. Against Ranged, yes, although he is only 2 Arm above an unbuffed Centurion. In melee his stats are identical to a Hammersmith, not exactly the pinnacle or resilience. A Juggernaut with a free charge kills him 50% of the time. His offence, as you noted, is around the same as an Ironclad or a Centurion. But Brickhouse has no utility or resilience against simply being charged and killed by a heavy or infantry. You could Arcane Shield him, but you could Arcane Shield a Centurion and get a much better effect. Speaking of Assail, have you seen how far a Hammersmith with Assail can go in a turn? 9" charge, 8" slam and follow up and 6" Beat Backs? Its monstrous and actually does more damage than Brickhouse does for 6 points less.
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 21, 2017 15:01:48 GMT
Octavius, how is Brickhouse not very good? I'd agree he has only very little synergy with Maddox, but his actual rules are very solid. Force Hold is brutal against 1" reach models. And he's basically immune to shooting. For Maddox, he seems like a great Assail target. It increases his charge threat far enough for him to actually lock stuff in place. His damage output is only slightly better than an Ironclad, sure, but he has serious control and durability. If you aren't available outside of your caster and lack synergies with that Caster then that is a death sentence for a character jack. When talking about Brickhouse, though, I don't find him especially resilient. Against Ranged, yes, although he is only 2 Arm above an unbuffed Centurion. In melee his stats are identical to a Hammersmith, not exactly the pinnacle or resilience. A Juggernaut with a free charge kills him 50% of the time. His offence, as you noted, is around the same as an Ironclad or a Centurion. But Brickhouse has no utility or resilience against simply being charged and killed by a heavy or infantry. You could Arcane Shield him, but you could Arcane Shield a Centurion and get a much better effect. Speaking of Assail, have you seen how far a Hammersmith with Assail can go in a turn? 9" charge, 8" slam and follow up and 6" Beat Backs? Its monstrous and actually does more damage than Brickhouse does for 6 points less. If Brickhouse were Jakes' jack...
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