|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 18, 2017 13:24:28 GMT
Caster | Storm Division | Heavy Metal | Gravediggers | Sons of the Tempest | Brisbane 1 | X, 3 | X, 2 |
| X, 3 | Brisbane 2 | X, 2 |
| X, 1 | | Caine 3 |
| X,2 |
| | Haley 1 |
| X, 2 | X, 2 | X, 3 | Haley 2 | X, 2 | X, 1 |
| | Haley 3 |
|
| X, 1 | | Kraye |
| X, 1 |
| | Nemo 3 | X, 2 | X, 1 |
| | Sloan 1 |
| X, 1 |
| | Stryker 1 | X, 1 | X, 1 | X, 2 | | Stryker 2 | X, 1 | X, 3 | X, 2 |
|
Above is a little Matrix of the casters who I think we are going to see being a part of Cygnar competitive play going forward. I believe that the casters outside of this list (Blaize, Caine 1, Caine 2, Darius, Jakes 2, Maddox, Nemo 1, Nemo 2, Stryker 3 and Sturgis) are too lacking to be considered for serious competitive play, mainly because they lack a unique game or set of tactics compared to other options. I have listed the casters that I think we will see and casters that opponents will need to at least consider being possibly part of the Cygnar official stable and I have based this mostly off of experience and gut feeling, but also due to meta considerations (which is how Haley 1 and Siege 1 sneak onto the list). I have also placed what I think will be the primary themes we will see these casters get played competitively in. I have also added a number which is my 'Jank score'. It is a score, 1-3, of how much of a Janky choice it is to have the caster in that theme (with 3 being very janky and 1 being logical and not very janky at all). In general just seperating my thoughts out in this way helped me try to qualify some feelings I have. In general I personally think Gravediggers is going to be an exceptional force on the Cygnaran meta with a lot of reliable (low Jank) lists, but mainly Haley 3 and Siege 2 being present. I think the combination of extremely solid infantry with a lot of overlapping defences and flexibility presents a real gear check for a lot of lists. Gravediggers able to bring 15" charging AD models or Def 19 shooting models is simply a factor people will need to consider when facing Cygnar. Heavy Metal is already a hugely potent force even though I feel that Cygnar heavies and huge bases are being hit hard by the meta. Storm Striders are probably the strongest model in the Cygnar range with the previous owner of the title, the Hurricane, falling down the charts slightly as Covering Fires and the Storm Pod gain significance with the rise of Infantry lists and SR2017. I think that nearly every caster in Cygnar can build a list off the back of Striders, Chargers and Fireflies, but Haley 2 and Nemo 3 will be the big ones. Storm Division is taking some hits with the nerfs to Storm Lances and Laddermore and because Storm blades usefulness is retracting as Heavy lists are being replaced with more and more infantry-spam, the theme lacks enough viable choices over Gravediggers and Heavy Metal. Storm Lances are still powerful, but the theme is leaning on them more than ever and the nerf and meta change are knocking the stuffing out of them. Lances don't trade well into Banes, Marauders, Makeda cats or any number of others lists, imo. Storm Division will remain retracted until Heavy lists start to take over again or Stormblades and Stormguard get some support. Sons is...not great. Its lack of any good base units (due to Tempest blazers being absurdly easy to kill for the points and the lack of killing potential of Pistoleers) really hurts it, although I feel that occasionally Pistoleer and a lot of Magical guns will make it an occasional tech list that will be taken with Jank casters such as Siege 1 and Haley 1 (doing the maths on how much damage the Black 13th can do with Haley 1, Ragman and Falk is a little absurd). The sad thought is, though, that Dark Industries kills this list extremely hard despite Cryx being its best matchup. So, any thoughts? Any lists? Any ideas? I would love to hear some other thoughts on Cygnars competitive future.
|
|
|
Post by darkangeldentist on Sept 18, 2017 14:31:51 GMT
I have a lot of thoughts but don't feel they pass your qualifying pass mark for competitive play. For example, I see room for Haley3 in Heavy metal since she can run a swarm of Cygnar lights very well and sword knights with Temporal distortion are almost a perfect jam unit. You can also get a large number of models with reposition making the list very fluid and flexible on the table. Similarly I think Kraye can operate quite well in Sons of the Tempest once the changes drop. With a 'true sight' mini-feat gun mages become an excellent unit to proc beacon and flare onto multiple targets letting the jacks pile. Similarly the now quite low threshold for free solos means that Kraye can still invest a lot of points into his battlegroup.
Pretty much everything I run would probably qualify as jank 3 or higher.
I do not see why Caine2 and Nemo2 can't be seen as competitive casters because to me they are still pretty solid and well rounded choices with a good toolkit of tricks to make use of. Caine2 might actually work very well into sons of the tempest because the nibbling damage the list is likely to inflict against lists that spam armour can be made to stick thanks to Caine's application of grievous wounds and with Falk, fire for effect and a focus from Arlan, a gun mage marshalled charger is really good! (Possibly one of the best ranged combos we have.) Nemo2 is a similar case for heavy metal. A storm strider by itself brings a lot of infantry clearing, polarity field and centurions cause infantry lists a lot of problems dealing with armour and Nemo2 likes to have a couple of jacks that won't need focus every turn so he can use it for himself.
My meta is small and very skewed though (not to mention I'm playing multiple factions) making it very hard to tell if the lists I run would actually work as well within the wider community.
I certainly see Cygnar staying a competitive faction with hopefully a bit more caster and list diversity.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 18, 2017 14:42:38 GMT
I think Kraye has potential to be played in more than Heavy Metal, I have managed to get a game in with SotT Kraye and have been impressed by it so far for the reasons above, but also Gravediggers I think will work for him.
The Trencher Package I was considering with him is
Max Commandoes - CA - 3 x WA Rangers Finn Buster (free) Buster (free)
It gives him a great target for Countermeasures, Board Presence with the AD, very accurate shooting and melee to trigger the feat. Plus two Shield Guards and a big of armour cracking, plus he still has plenty of points to get lots of jacks in there.
|
|
cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
|
Post by cain on Sept 18, 2017 18:08:45 GMT
Interesting list and good work !
For competetive play i fear we will see extremly few of SoT-theme, and Haley1. With all the anti gun line tech around i also fear for sloan and cain3.
As for which caster goes with which theme (ignoring SoT unless some miracel happening after CID ): - i can see H2 also in gravediggers. Trenchers for anti infantry and haley herself with feat and battlegroup to take down heavies. Especially if ragman is allowed, this theme could be on par with heavy metal. - i have also seen H3 doing good in storm division. Otherwise agree.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Sept 18, 2017 18:23:30 GMT
I think Kraye can play pretty well in both Heavy Metal and SoT, and the same goes for Caine3 and Sloan. Going for the 30 points of Gun mages and filling the rest with jacks will net you some nice things (expecially GMCA) that they love.
Also, Kraye loves to have units (expecially true sight units) to apply the feat, so SoT can work pretty well with him.
On the other side, I'm honestly not much impressed by Haley1 in SoT. Sure, on feat turn she is nice, but on other turns I don't think she performs that well.
Finally, if like I think all themes will get some mercs, including Heavy Metal, Darius could probably regain some terrain with the right mercs available, and the same could be said for Stryker2 in Storm Division.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 18, 2017 23:52:35 GMT
darkangeldentistI believe the criteria for a competitive list needs more than just some base synergies, it also needs to bring something important to the meta which isn't done elsewhere. Haley 3 heavy metal I find to not be particularly alluring because it is overly weak to things such as Ret, Ghost fleet, AOEs, etc. Relying on high def (and 15 vs ranged isn't particularly high) without having very strong armour to back it up or some resistance to weapons commonly used vs infantry is just asking to be countered at list selection. So while I think Haley 3 can build a reasonably competent list from heavy metal, I don't think it is doing much to assist cygnar to win games it couldn't do elsewhere. Change those sword knights into trenchers and you are suddenly packing def 19 immune to blast models that are quite capable of fighting most things in the game with assistance. Nemo 2 has a similar problem in that while I think you can load him up with jacks and call it a day I don't believe he grants a unique edge with his list that being competitive requires. He grants more focus and energiser, the only unique thing he provides is polarity field which *is* a good spell but probably not enough to win a game off. If more lists start to resemble banes the maybe nemo 2 with a polarity shielded hurricane might work but for now I am not enthused. Caine 2 had a lot of problems even before his nerf. While he could remove low arm infantry en mass he had some trouble with even the prototype heavy spam lists and infantry was quickly disappearing from the meta. Themes took away his support staff and lists were relying on more caster support than he provided. While sons can make his feat good again with Falk and some support, sons remains a list that needs help that Caine doesn't provide. If Caine 2 was classed as a arcane tempest model and could upkeep for free on himself and gained pistoleer then maybe he would find a place. Also jank 3+? We are reaching levels of jank we previously thought were impossible! @cygnarguy Kraye is a big question mark for now. I placed him in only heavy metal because it is a natural fit and I personally haven't been impressed by the sons, Storm division and gravedigger lists for him because his kit does very little for them. If you want shield guards then repositioning sentinels are great. If you want to flare and beacon stealth models then we have the minuteman (or just flare something near it and charge that or just ignore it and kill everything else and rely on admo). We will see, of course, I only have a few games with new kraye but I think currently heavy metal is the place he will remain competitive due to his innate synergies with warjacks. cainHaley 2 in gravediggers has been in my mind a bit but I find the lack of a squire to be a big deal breaker. I will try it out at some point on the future but Im skeptical that better couldn't be done by loading up with striders, heavies and fireflies. AegisThe statement that "kraye loves units to apply his feat" is one I don't think is true. He doesn't need units to apply the feat and jack shooting does it just as well. Not just that but krayes feat doesn't do anything unless you actually follow up the benefits with a charge and the question is how many models you are planning to charge on krayes feat? For instance, my current kraye build has 3 hunters which gives you 5 easy shots for his feat (3 hunters and 2 shots from kraye) ignoring runewood and junior. I only have 4 heavies and so the question is why I would need more flares and beacons than heavies I am planning to commit? Haley 1 in sons I've seen purely as a tech list, primarily based around having a lot of pushing shooting mixed with an arcane shielded hurricane with arcane vortex protecting it and Haley from people like Denny. It's not *good*, it's *jank*, like most sons of the tempest lists. Its probably the most controversial pick on the list, but I have seen it talked about occasionally.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Sept 19, 2017 0:45:01 GMT
I think that ATGM are good to apply Kraye feat in particular because of Stealth and Cloud Walls.
If your enemy has one of those two elements, your risk to not be able to apply the feat at all, and so to not be able to enjoy Kraye main benefit (long threat ranges).
Also, consider that shots can miss and/or be shield guarded. Having more shots than you need is useful in those cases, and could help you cover more field with it. In the end, for the cost of a single hunter you practically get 6 shots of gun mages, and in general some thunderbolts can come handy.
If to that you add some nice things like GMCA or Riflemans or Falk you can easily get 30 points of useful pieces that synergize pretty well with Kraye. That without including that HM at the moment still doesn't allow for mercs while SoT does.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 19, 2017 1:20:21 GMT
I think that ATGM are good to apply Kraye feat in particular because of Stealth and Cloud Walls. If your enemy has one of those two elements, your risk to not be able to apply the feat at all, and so to not be able to enjoy Kraye main benefit (long threat ranges). Also, consider that shots can miss and/or be shield guarded. Having more shots than you need is useful in those cases, and could help you cover more field with it. In the end, for the cost of a single hunter you practically get 6 shots of gun mages, and in general some thunderbolts can come handy. If to that you add some nice things like GMCA or Riflemans or Falk you can easily get 30 points of useful pieces that synergize pretty well with Kraye. That without including that HM at the moment still doesn't allow for mercs while SoT does. Im pretty sure if you hit a model with beacon and flare you still can't charge them. Nothing on beacon of flare states that you ignore Los when charging them.
|
|
|
Post by Havock on Sept 19, 2017 1:23:26 GMT
Is Jakes2 too weak or simply too new?
She doesn't seem that terrible on paper, if slightly handicapped by the non-Swannish tactic of smashing the opposition's face in.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 19, 2017 1:28:58 GMT
Is Jakes2 too weak or simply too new? She doesn't seem that terrible on paper, if slightly handicapped by the non-Swannish tactic of smashing the opposition's face in. Interestingly I was speaking about why I think Jakes 2 is bad this morning. Everything on her card seems good but there are a lot of annoying factors. Her base stat's of 16/14 with 14 boxes aren't great. She can get arm 16, but only if she is babysat by a Warjack. Her focus 6 simply doesn't go far enough after upkeeps and positive charge she can't allocate enough. If you want you could play stormclads in storm division to get accumulator but then her feat becomes useless. She isn't very good, imo.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Sept 19, 2017 1:35:58 GMT
I think that ATGM are good to apply Kraye feat in particular because of Stealth and Cloud Walls. If your enemy has one of those two elements, your risk to not be able to apply the feat at all, and so to not be able to enjoy Kraye main benefit (long threat ranges). Also, consider that shots can miss and/or be shield guarded. Having more shots than you need is useful in those cases, and could help you cover more field with it. In the end, for the cost of a single hunter you practically get 6 shots of gun mages, and in general some thunderbolts can come handy. If to that you add some nice things like GMCA or Riflemans or Falk you can easily get 30 points of useful pieces that synergize pretty well with Kraye. That without including that HM at the moment still doesn't allow for mercs while SoT does. Im pretty sure if you hit a model with beacon and flare you still can't charge them. Nothing on beacon of flare states that you ignore Los when charging them. On the Cloudwall case, I'm referring to the ability to use the True Sight mini-feat to remove the models that originate the cloudwall, so you can after proceed with normal feat tagging and charges. For stealth, instead, you use the mini-feat directly to apply Kraye's feat on targets usually hard to tag with it. In both cases, ATGM come handy against a thing that could make Kraye's life difficult.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 19, 2017 1:39:47 GMT
Im pretty sure if you hit a model with beacon and flare you still can't charge them. Nothing on beacon of flare states that you ignore Los when charging them. On the Cloudwall case, I'm referring to the ability to use the True Sight mini-feat to remove the models that originate the cloudwall, so you can after proceed with normal feat tagging and charges. For stealth, instead, you use the mini-feat directly to apply Kraye's feat on targets usually hard to tag with it. In both cases, ATGM come handy against a thing that could make Kraye's life difficult. Oh, doesn't that pretty much only apply to Haley 3 and druids. I don't think gun mages can kill all of Haley 3s trenchers in gravediggers in one turn and the druids will be in a theme where they can palm off shots. Not quite seeing the value myself.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Sept 19, 2017 1:43:44 GMT
If you kill 7 of the 10 Haley3 (or Llael resistance...) Trenchers you are making the cloudwall a lot less impressive... 3 mans cloudwall doesn't cover that much. If you than add 1 or 2 GMCA, you can destroy the cloudwall pretty reliably.
Also, it works against other types of Cloudwalls too, as an example you could kill the Satyxis Gunslingers behind it. The only cloudwall immune to that that comes to mind is Gaspy's one that is directly made by the caster itself.
Also, if your main concern is that, nothing stops you to take two units of ATGM to reach exactly 30 points.
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Sept 19, 2017 2:50:45 GMT
A cloudwall usually only needs to work once to be effective though. If I lose the trenchos to deliver my army that's fine.
There are also plenty of caster cloudwalls in the game; Zerkova, Kolgrima, High Reclaimer, Jarl, esevvy, (to a lesser extent zaadesh and rasheth) can all do a fine job of clouding by themselves. Then there's Khador's repositioning kodiaks (esp. hark/malakov/karchev), ternion, and extra clouds on malakov/ow2. Thags and durst can do backfield clouds, any PoD list has the option via shamans. Rask and Coven get feats and veil.
|
|
|
Post by Havock on Sept 19, 2017 3:23:57 GMT
Interestingly I was speaking about why I think Jakes 2 is bad this morning. Everything on her card seems good but there are a lot of annoying factors. Her base stat's of 16/14 with 14 boxes aren't great. She can get arm 16, but only if she is babysat by a Warjack. Her focus 6 simply doesn't go far enough after upkeeps and positive charge she can't allocate enough. If you want you could play stormclads in storm division to get accumulator but then her feat becomes useless. She isn't very good, imo. She does seem fragile-ish. Though the new SR terrain placement could alleviate that problem. I've been eyeing her for my Sword Knight list, she does some nice things for them (positive charge, feat) and they play ball with her jacks, but I can't help but feel that Stryker2 does the same (positive charge, another good feat), sort of, except he is more survivable and has a personal threat that simply can't be ignored. Ignoring Jakes2 with some camp on your caster, assuming it's not a wet noodle, acceptable risk. Ignoring Stryker2? Bad things® are about to happen.
|
|