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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 30, 2017 2:09:19 GMT
Unsuprisingly, the rest of our themes remain completely innocuous and unthreatening
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Post by W0lfBane on Sept 30, 2017 4:20:13 GMT
Unsuprisingly, the rest of our themes remain completely innocuous and unthreatening You're drunk go home
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Post by bskhacker on Sept 30, 2017 4:34:43 GMT
So aren't we all going to act like the massive nerf to hand of vengeance is ok? Heavy jack only is complete bullshit... How do you figure?
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Post by djgibraltar on Sept 30, 2017 5:03:05 GMT
@wantonranger
be fair. i dont want other factions to be unbalanced and us either. if it worked on light jacks i firmly believe that there would have been some real abuse possible. do you really think it is fair that a fully loaded devout with amon can do 38 to 39 boxes to an arm 20. for 7 pts you can kill almost anything in the game and rip more then half a colossus off. o and btw including sidesteps. it had the potential of going 14 1/2 inches with still 3 mat 12 pow 20 attacks into your caster. for 7 pts.
if that makes sense to you you are in the wrong game. u can achieve similar results with feora 3. mat 11 ps 21 attacks with free charge.
even with just ignite caster you have ps 19 attacks from a 7 pt jack with high base mat and 2 base attacks.
p.s. we are not even talking about combo strike hits
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 30, 2017 10:00:49 GMT
@wantonranger be fair. i dont want other factions to be unbalanced and us either. if it worked on light jacks i firmly believe that there would have been some real abuse possible. do you really think it is fair that a fully loaded devout with amon can do 38 to 39 boxes to an arm 20. for 7 pts you can kill almost anything in the game and rip more then half a colossus off. o and btw including sidesteps. it had the potential of going 14 1/2 inches with still 3 mat 12 pow 20 attacks into your caster. for 7 pts. if that makes sense to you you are in the wrong game. u can achieve similar results with feora 3. mat 11 ps 21 attacks with free charge. even with just ignite caster you have ps 19 attacks from a 7 pt jack with high base mat and 2 base attacks. p.s. we are not even talking about combo strike hits I think the problem is that you all get to Amon and Dervish's and can't seem to get past that point. It would have been beneficial to other casters and other lights. I'm sure there was a better work around than just removing all the light jacks from the benefits... I didn't really say that it couldn't be abused but the CID discussed other options rather than just removing lights from the equation. The equivalence in cryx is their gangfighter theme which is basically completely unrestricted because it just asks you to play the game to get the benefits.
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 30, 2017 10:41:29 GMT
Unsuprisingly, the rest of our themes remain completely innocuous and unthreatening You're drunk go home Unsurprisingly I want us to have a theme that challenges the meta better than currently. Mercs might make that happen, but everyone else gets them as well. FM was basically a potential standout theme for obvious strength and it may still be that but seems much less likely with the new restrictions affecting all Warcasters, not just Amon. Protectorate is so far from being overpowered that I just don't get the bizarre panic mode that confuses anything that might be strong with being overpowered straight away. It's not a standard that PP holds to for other factions so why aggressively over-prune the theme before seeing if it's an actual issue in prolonged play.
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Post by W0lfBane on Sept 30, 2017 11:30:48 GMT
Unsurprisingly I want us to have a theme that challenges the meta better than currently. Mercs might make that happen, but everyone else gets them as well. FM was basically a potential standout theme for obvious strength and it may still be that but seems much less likely with the new restrictions affecting all Warcasters, not just Amon. Protectorate is so far from being overpowered that I just don't get the bizarre panic mode that confuses anything that might be strong with being overpowered straight away. It's not a standard that PP holds to for other factions so why aggressively over-prune the theme before seeing if it's an actual issue in prolonged play. so you want op stuff cause you can't figure out the meta. I mean if every single faction needs something extremely strong to answer the meta that's how you get power creep. I'd much rather them nerf than your solution
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 30, 2017 11:53:32 GMT
Anyone else terrified of the Masters of war skorne Theme? I sure am so much for my testament aspirations... Bit scary but that's counter-play for you. It stops tough so we can self-sacrificing, martyrdom, and sanguine bond. As far as the RFP I think we only got the self-sacrifice. The issue is soul denial. It's another thing in the meta that turns off his kit completeley
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 30, 2017 12:01:24 GMT
Unsurprisingly I want us to have a theme that challenges the meta better than currently. Mercs might make that happen, but everyone else gets them as well. FM was basically a potential standout theme for obvious strength and it may still be that but seems much less likely with the new restrictions affecting all Warcasters, not just Amon. Protectorate is so far from being overpowered that I just don't get the bizarre panic mode that confuses anything that might be strong with being overpowered straight away. It's not a standard that PP holds to for other factions so why aggressively over-prune the theme before seeing if it's an actual issue in prolonged play. so you want op stuff cause you can't figure out the meta. I mean if every single faction needs something extremely strong to answer the meta that's how you get power creep. I'd much rather them nerf than your solution Your response is painful to read when my above quote literally says I want "strong" and that I worry we jump to conclusions about things being overpowered too quickly. Not sure I can state it any more basically for you but I enjoyed your pre-prepared spiel for your special interpretation of what I said. It's not to a answer the meta, it's strong enough to take part in it, make other people tech for our lists rather than just the other way around. There is plenty of that around so not sure why it's not applicable to our faction. I want to Run Sev1 with FM and am disappointed that BoV and other light jacks I use, now get nothing from the theme. Pretty sure that's reasonable and not OP. But so glad you are here to put words in my mouth and insult me about not being able to figure things out. Slow clap.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 30, 2017 12:18:04 GMT
I can agree that it is incredibly frustrating that 1 caster caused the nerfs for our entire theme. I was pretty excited to use repenters with Malekus in FM but that's out the window now :/ all because Amon has synergy and mobility and dervishes are incredibly potent for thier cost
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 30, 2017 12:25:19 GMT
I can agree that it is incredibly frustrating that 1 caster caused the nerfs for our entire theme. I was pretty excited to use repenters with Malekus in FM but that's out the window now :/ all because Amon has synergy and mobility and dervishes are incredibly potent for thier cost Literally one jack interaction has shaped the entire infantry theme and they just went with the nuclear response >> No light jacks... There were other workarounds discussed.
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Post by dazzla on Sept 30, 2017 13:09:22 GMT
In CID I argued that Hand of Vengeance was too strong a benefit, even though I play Menoth. However, that reflected my then understanding of what was an appropriate benchmark for theme benefits. Having seen the Cryx themes, and particularly the "slaughter Fleet' theme which gets gang fighter (in my view much more useful than Hand of Vengeance) on all jacks, I now believe that Hand of Vengeance should apply to all Menoth jacks. It would not be broken compared to some other themes, and if there was issues with one caster or one light, then those could be separately addressed. Once again I am left feeling disappointed with decisions regarding Menoth.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Sept 30, 2017 14:04:11 GMT
Anyone else terrified of the Masters of war skorne Theme? I sure am so much for my testament aspirations... I've already been dealing with this concept. Gators: Snacking. Trolls X2: snacking, that one theme. Grymkin: almost everything Ret: shatterstorm Mercs: loves pirates and cehpalyx that's about 70% of the local tournament meta and stuff they commonly play. In short, I'll have fun games with testament but for me he's dead in the water come tourney time.
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Post by W0lfBane on Sept 30, 2017 14:49:07 GMT
so you want op stuff cause you can't figure out the meta. I mean if every single faction needs something extremely strong to answer the meta that's how you get power creep. I'd much rather them nerf than your solution Your response is painful to read when my above quote literally says I want "strong" and that I worry we jump to conclusions about things being overpowered too quickly. Not sure I can state it any more basically for you but I enjoyed your pre-prepared spiel for your special interpretation of what I said. It's not to a answer the meta, it's strong enough to take part in it, make other people tech for our lists rather than just the other way around. There is plenty of that around so not sure why it's not applicable to our faction. I want to Run Sev1 with FM and am disappointed that BoV and other light jacks I use, now get nothing from the theme. Pretty sure that's reasonable and not OP. But so glad you are here to put words in my mouth and insult me about not being able to figure things out. Slow clap. Your response to this theme is to call bullshit that light warjacks don't get HoV. And that it doesn't answer the meta. In what i assumed was an inflamed tone. And in your response you say your original quote says you want something "strong". In your response you say it is strong enough to partipate in the meta. If its strong enough but you want more you're getting into too strong territory. Just because other factions have broked stuff doesn't mean i particularly want our faction to get broked stuff too. Again that's how power creep happens. Here's h how i view your problem the meta has gotten out of hand and we need something to answer it. You wanted this theme to do it. I would prefer the meta come back to a balanced level. I'm sorry you got offended by my unintended implication of your lack of skill. Sufficed to say I'm very pleased with this *infantry* theme
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 30, 2017 15:15:40 GMT
Anyone else terrified of the Masters of war skorne Theme? I sure am so much for my testament aspirations... I've already been dealing with this concept. Gators: Snacking. Trolls X2: snacking, that one theme. Grymkin: almost everything Ret: shatterstorm Mercs: loves pirates and cehpalyx that's about 70% of the local tournament meta and stuff they commonly play. In short, I'll have fun games with testament but for me he's dead in the water come tourney time. Yeah almost bought into him again. It's honestly a shame.
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