|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 16, 2017 23:20:48 GMT
Did you somehow not need to bring heavy removing melee options with the 6-10 marauder lists running around? Or Helios Forges? I play Circle we don't have very decent ways to trade multiple jacks in melee. The truth is if a circle player has to face more than 7 Khador heavies it's almost a guaranteed loss. Forged is light Spam which circle handles better. Edit: The truth is I am salty mostly cuz I have circle bias and heavy spam bores me. It's cool to take a variety of heavies in mass but 5-6 of the same Heavy is pretty blah. Besides gotta spice up this thread with some doom and gloom otherwise all this would be us a bunch of cryx players saying how cool it is Keep the discussion goin right?
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Sept 16, 2017 23:41:25 GMT
Uh, most of the forge lists i've seen rolled manticore spam with maybe an aspis and chim or 2, griffon spam isnt as much of a thing anymore
|
|
|
Post by dazzla on Sept 17, 2017 0:32:47 GMT
I play Menoth (amongst others) and wrote on the CID forums that the benefits to Faithful masses (particularly Hand of Vengeance) were excessive. And I believe that the carapace benefit in the latest Cryx theme is also excessive. Either of these benefits would once have been considered amongst the defining features of a jack that would have been costed into the points of the the jack. Now these benefits are handed out with themes.
I stopped playing another miniatures game because of the power creep. That was why I started playing Warmachine.......
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 17, 2017 1:19:21 GMT
Uh, most of the forge lists i've seen rolled manticore spam with maybe an aspis and chim or 2, griffon spam isnt as much of a thing anymore Not in my meta. But meta differences are a thing. Also I would love to see manticores. 14 point heavies are more than mageable for me
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Sept 17, 2017 1:28:32 GMT
maybe maybe not, 5 covering fire pow 12 wall templates does a real nice job of segregating sections of the scoring zones.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 17, 2017 1:41:55 GMT
maybe maybe not, 5 covering fire pow 12 wall templates does a real nice job of segregating sections of the scoring zones. Not when you don't care about unboosted pow 12's If I had to pick between vyross with 8 gryphons Imperatus and Helios of Vyros with Imperatus and 5 Manticores (or 2 and helios) I'll take the Manticore version any day
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Sept 17, 2017 4:07:18 GMT
Oh come on. The issue is not finding a list that can get rid of 10 Slayers. I'm certain any faction can do that. The issue is finding a list that can do so while still passing the gear check for DennyFleet and not losing to Dark Host. Good luck with that. Though I'm certain Host and Fleet are the actual issues here, this just makes them so much worse.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Sept 17, 2017 4:27:14 GMT
Did you somehow not need to bring heavy removing melee options with the 6-10 marauder lists running around? Or Helios Forges? I play Circle we don't have very decent ways to trade multiple jacks in melee. The truth is if a circle player has to face more than 7 Khador heavies it's almost a guaranteed loss. Forged is light Spam which circle handles better. Edit: The truth is I am salty mostly cuz I have circle bias and heavy spam bores me. It's cool to take a variety of heavies in mass but 5-6 of the same Heavy is pretty blah. Besides gotta spice up this thread with some doom and gloom otherwise all this would be us a bunch of cryx players saying how cool it is Keep the discussion goin right? I'm fairly certain Una2 & Kaya3 can trade melee lights into Cryx heavies quite profitably. Dark Industries is only a brick vs guns. Vs melee they're the same old paper heavies that have been close to unplayable for years. I don't think this brick is going to be as bad for Circle as Karchev is. The Slayer & Seether Chasis fall over dead to charging Tharn. I don't think this theme force will be nearly as bad for Circle as you think it will be. Cryx heavies are about as hard to kill as Cygnar lights, a Slayer has 2 Boxes & 1 base Armor over a Charger. If you can handle Charger Spam in melee you can probably handle Dark Industries.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Sept 17, 2017 4:53:47 GMT
This seems like an ok theme. Arm20-21 vs shooting sounds nasty, but they still have Cryx damage grids. So boosted guns will do decent damage, just not so much as to make them fall over.
Seems fair.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Sept 17, 2017 5:57:33 GMT
13/21 unsupported on a 10p model is a lot. I pay 22p (cheapest version) and 2 Fury to get to 12/21. And I'm sure not complaining about the Krea.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Sept 17, 2017 6:15:28 GMT
Honestly, personally I don't care. I usually prefer melee or combined arms lists anyway. That said, I'm a little worried about the number of very hard counters to gunlines PP are introducing recently. Gunlines are a legitimate type of list and shouldn't be made totally impossible to play. Anyway, Carapace is a much better ability to give around than others. At least it just reduces ranged damage instead of trying to make guns totally useless like other benefits (like massive shield guard spam or ubiquitus cloudwalls). If PP doesn't introduce things to keep gunline in check then they will take over the game. Same reason they did in real life. Guns naturally out threat melee. So they have to create a reason to take melee. Either make guns suck, make melee over powered, or introduce something that limits the effectiveness of guns. Sure. Limit the effectiveness of guns is totally fine and great. Creating one-sided matchups isn't a good way to do it. I'm not against things that limit gunlines, but I'm against auto-win and auto-lose situations. That is also the reason I said that Carapace is better than other things.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Sept 17, 2017 9:00:20 GMT
I'm all for making gunlines an auto-lose. Nobody wants guns to be completely ineffectual, but when a gunline is viable it creates the most miserable games imaginable.
Friends don't let friends play gunlines.
-und_ed
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Sept 17, 2017 9:24:56 GMT
I'm all for making gunlines an auto-lose. Nobody wants guns to be completely ineffectual, but when a gunline is viable it creates the most miserable games imaginable. Friends don't let friends play gunlines. -und_ed Making gunlines auto-lose without making guns ineffective doesn't seem possible. Also, gunlines being "viable" means a game where both the gunline player and the melee player have chances to win, doesn't seem that miserable to me (sure, there are more fun archetypes than gunlines, but that is just personal preference. "I don't like it so noone should be allowed to play it doesn't seem a very good way of thinking"). Making things (whatever thing) auto-lose is bad. If you don't like something at the point that you want it to auto-lose than just don't play games with that element. Chess haven't gunlines. Play that instead of wanting to deny other people the right to play something into a game that has it.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Sept 17, 2017 9:51:16 GMT
I don't buy that guns have to be ineffectual to make gunlines non-viable. ranged elements softening an enemy up for a melee punch is a perfectly reasonable place for shooting.
Gunlines are completely non-interactive. You don't need an opponent for that, just an Excel spreadsheet.
-und_ed
|
|
|
Post by dazzla on Sept 17, 2017 10:51:51 GMT
I personally do not like playing, or playing against any skew list, be that jack/heavy spam or gunlines.
However, gun lines are no more non-interactive than a melee army that just rolls up the table.
Personally I would like to see more combined arms games. But instead the game seems to be rapidly moving in directions I do not like or enjoy (spam lists, themes with strong benefits, sometimes hard counters).
|
|