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Post by tesoe on Sept 16, 2017 16:26:03 GMT
BUT Why aren't all the themes balanced across all factions? Because PP is made up of flawed human beings capable of making mistakes, or there are things coming out in the future that will make those themes better. It's not like they are purposefully putting out things people don't want to play.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 16, 2017 16:54:51 GMT
BUT Why aren't all the themes balanced across all factions? Because PP is made up of flawed human beings capable of making mistakes, or there are things coming out in the future that will make those themes better. It's not like they are purposefully putting out things people don't want to play. I mean I am still convinced secret masters is PP trolling the circle community but otherwise sure
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Post by jisidro on Sept 16, 2017 17:41:29 GMT
Because PP is made up of flawed human beings capable of making mistakes, or there are things coming out in the future that will make those themes better. It's not like they are purposefully putting out things people don't want to play. I mean I am still convinced secret masters is PP trolling the circle community but otherwise sure LOL!
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 16, 2017 18:50:25 GMT
Carapace is still a nicer alternative to just increasing armor, giving out armor buff auras, or something like impervious flesh. And at least it's only on heavies. no carapace chicken swarms.
Most all the warmachine factions will now have definitive anti-shooting options. Cryx also got the battle engine aura for not-this-theme lists. Ret just got that passle of shield guards. Protectorate has had the choir. Khador has the base arm. Cygnar shoots better than you. though I don't know what options Mercs have but I know i own a bokur so theres shield guards out there.
I wait, tiredly, for Hordes to see some sort of equivilant. Like has been stated the Druid theme is a joke. Oracles is still poorly designed.
It seems WM factions are "Bring WJs get free points and WJ buffs." Where as Hordes ends up being "Bring WB, get free point, get infantry buff." or "Bring Infantry, get free points, get WB buff." It's completely counter intuitive. You get buffs for the models you are taking less of to take advantage of the theme. It's mind boggling.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 16, 2017 19:41:23 GMT
So Cryx makes a tougher brick against shooting than Trollbloods can. Makes sense to me.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 16, 2017 20:01:59 GMT
Carapace is still a nicer alternative to just increasing armor, giving out armor buff auras, or something like impervious flesh. And at least it's only on heavies. no carapace chicken swarms. Most all the warmachine factions will now have definitive anti-shooting options. Cryx also got the battle engine aura for not-this-theme lists. Ret just got that passle of shield guards. Protectorate has had the choir. Khador has the base arm. Cygnar shoots better than you. though I don't know what options Mercs have but I know i own a bokur so theres shield guards out there. I wait, tiredly, for Hordes to see some sort of equivilant. Like has been stated the Druid theme is a joke. Oracles is still poorly designed. It seems WM factions are "Bring WJs get free points and WJ buffs." Where as Hordes ends up being "Bring WB, get free point, get infantry buff." or "Bring Infantry, get free points, get WB buff." It's completely counter intuitive. You get buffs for the models you are taking less of to take advantage of the theme. It's mind boggling. Little nitpick, Wraith Engine doesn't work on jacks because they're not undead.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 16, 2017 20:19:15 GMT
Ghost Fleet reintroduced the need for a Cryx drop. Dark Host made it so your Cryx drop is countered by Cryx. Now this adds another layer of BS to the mix. Can't say I'm thrilled. Or that my faction has a list that can get a 30% into all of these.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 16, 2017 20:40:37 GMT
Carapace is still a nicer alternative to just increasing armor, giving out armor buff auras, or something like impervious flesh. And at least it's only on heavies. no carapace chicken swarms. Most all the warmachine factions will now have definitive anti-shooting options. Cryx also got the battle engine aura for not-this-theme lists. Ret just got that passle of shield guards. Protectorate has had the choir. Khador has the base arm. Cygnar shoots better than you. though I don't know what options Mercs have but I know i own a bokur so theres shield guards out there. I wait, tiredly, for Hordes to see some sort of equivilant. Like has been stated the Druid theme is a joke. Oracles is still poorly designed. It seems WM factions are "Bring WJs get free points and WJ buffs." Where as Hordes ends up being "Bring WB, get free point, get infantry buff." or "Bring Infantry, get free points, get WB buff." It's completely counter intuitive. You get buffs for the models you are taking less of to take advantage of the theme. It's mind boggling. To be fair in protectorate choir is nullified by magical weapons and every single Theme is either bring dudes get jack buff or bring jacks get support staff buff lol. Hilariously Oracles gives you the unit buff in a beast theme but it is arguably the best theme in hordes right now. I do not mind giving jacks, beasts a benefit in a theme that gives free points for dudes. but those benefits need to be good. Snacking, tracker, girded, etc are all situational and while they have applications in some factions are almost useless in the factions that got them. Carapace would not be a concern for me if People were not already getting ready to spam a buttload of slayers and as a circle player I just see this big wall of jacks that none of my guns can hurt and when they get to me I flat loose on attrition because there are so many and warpwolves die pretty easily. As a protectorate player it scares me less because I have weaponmaster spam. The issue is army wide carapace is a gear check. It further forces bad match ups for both the Cryx player and his opponent. Benefits like this are bad for meta diversity.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 16, 2017 21:08:31 GMT
Carapace is still a nicer alternative to just increasing armor, giving out armor buff auras, or something like impervious flesh. And at least it's only on heavies. no carapace chicken swarms. Most all the warmachine factions will now have definitive anti-shooting options. Cryx also got the battle engine aura for not-this-theme lists. Ret just got that passle of shield guards. Protectorate has had the choir. Khador has the base arm. Cygnar shoots better than you. though I don't know what options Mercs have but I know i own a bokur so theres shield guards out there. I wait, tiredly, for Hordes to see some sort of equivilant. Like has been stated the Druid theme is a joke. Oracles is still poorly designed. It seems WM factions are "Bring WJs get free points and WJ buffs." Where as Hordes ends up being "Bring WB, get free point, get infantry buff." or "Bring Infantry, get free points, get WB buff." It's completely counter intuitive. You get buffs for the models you are taking less of to take advantage of the theme. It's mind boggling. Carapace would not be a concern for me if People were not already getting ready to spam a buttload of slayers and as a circle player I just see this big wall of jacks that none of my guns can hurt and when they get to me I flat loose on attrition because there are so many and warpwolves die pretty easily. As a protectorate player it scares me less because I have weaponmaster spam. The issue is army wide carapace is a gear check. It further forces bad match ups for both the Cryx player and his opponent. Benefits like this are bad for meta diversity. Before this theme who was honestly going to spam Slayers? Is Carapace to all Cryx heavies a massive buff, yes. But be honest, how many Cryx heavies have you actually seen in lists that have done well over the past year? Cryx heavies are for the most part garbage. The only one I've used in the past 8 months has been Nightmare with Deneghra1. Benefits like this make the meta more diverse. If Cryx didn't get good themes in the form of Dark Host & Black Industries all you would see from Cryx players are different flavors of Ghost Fleet. This benefit is going to diversify Cryx, & it's going to cause other factions to diversify & not not bring 2 lists that rely solely on shooting to get the job done. Army wide Carapace is as much of a gear check as Destructive Initiative, Shadow Pack, or the Shroud Arcana. Massive anti-gunline gear checks have existed in this game for months & every single one of them can just get punched in the face. Carapace isn't like Ghost Fleet where you need RFP, nor does it require magic weapons to do work. You don't need to bring specific tech to deal with Carapace, every list has the ability to charge into melee.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 16, 2017 21:23:09 GMT
Deller you do need to bring specific tech to fight carapace. You need to bring heavy removing melee options. Perhaps it will encourage more meta diversity...or most likely it will just add more cryx to the meta. Look, I am not arguing cryx heavies needed a good theme. But carapace is one of those extreme benefits that just kind of says no to your opponent. It isn't even just about ranged attacks, carapace is triggered for free strikes too which will cause issues regardless of what your opponent is bringing. Cryx has casters that run jacks incredibly well, even without themes. Particularly Gaspy 3 and Morty come to mind. One of my biggest issues in the meta right now is a lot of times you will come to an opponent who's lists are bad match ups for yours in one way or another and vice versa (eg: High volume Gunline/Jack Swarm vs Dudespam/Anti-Gunline List) In that situation more than likely someone is getting a screwed match up and its one of those "luck of the draw" situations. Themes with benefits like this make those situations more common.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 16, 2017 21:30:45 GMT
Did you somehow not need to bring heavy removing melee options with the 6-10 marauder lists running around? Or Helios Forges?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 16, 2017 21:40:47 GMT
Deller you do need to bring specific tech to fight carapace. You need to bring heavy removing melee options. Perhaps it will encourage more meta diversity...or most likely it will just add more cryx to the meta. Look, I am not arguing cryx heavies needed a good theme. But carapace is one of those extreme benefits that just kind of says no to your opponent. It isn't even just about ranged attacks, carapace is triggered for free strikes too which will cause issues regardless of what your opponent is bringing. Cryx has casters that run jacks incredibly well, even without themes. Particularly Gaspy 3 and Morty come to mind. One of my biggest issues in the meta right now is a lot of times you will come to an opponent who's lists are bad match ups for yours in one way or another and vice versa (eg: High volume Gunline/Jack Swarm vs Dudespam/Anti-Gunline List) In that situation more than likely someone is getting a screwed match up and its one of those "luck of the draw" situations. Themes with benefits like this make those situations more common. You already needed heavy removing Melee options to take out Convergence heavies, Skin & Moans with corpses, Baldur2, Korea buffed Titans, or Stryker1 Heavy Metal. Cryx is not bricking harder then the most extreme bricks out there. All this theme has done is give Cryx a new style it's capable of using. This is far from the best anti-gun ARM brick in the game. What were you doing about all the others?
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 16, 2017 22:10:40 GMT
I was playing the game just like you. Convergence is not a very widespread faction, Baldur 2 can have blessed ruin his day, Stryker 1 is only really high Arm on Feat Turn. And Korea is negated by blessed as well. In fact all those options you can work around with blessed or by denying the source of the buffs somehow. Flat +4 Arm on everything is in no way comparable to those casters/combos
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Post by Lord_Randall on Sept 16, 2017 22:18:55 GMT
Deller: mcdaddy is just salty because another faction gain the option for spamming cheap warjacks. This kind of list is obnoxious for Circle. Your argument isn't totally wrong, but problem for Circle isn't bring armor cracking... is bring enought piece with armor cracking capability because how are costed our beasts. Even models with middling armor are a problem if in a fair number and with 24+ boxes. The carapace thing sting because the answer for this kind of lists (khador aside) was shooting for us. Now guns are out of the table and we are forced in a kind of attrition game wr can't win. Is early and meta will adapt for sure, but dark industries has the potential to be a real boogeiman for Circle. I hope the point of mcdaddy is clear now. English isn't my language.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 16, 2017 22:53:54 GMT
Let's avoid attacking each other shall we?
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