Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685 
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Post by Lanz on Mar 7, 2017 1:23:19 GMT
So I was thinking about a Saeryn list to push her feat, and decided on Saeryn + Blightbringer + x2 warspears. ARM 21 on the feat turn with Dragon's Breath still isn't a big deal at 5 boxes each, but I found myself thinking about the blightbringer itself a lot in the process.
Under Saeryn, a gargantuan can be almost totally protected by Blight bringer(the spell), limiting the threats against it to infantry, or very fast heavies that can charge past/around the blight bringer AoE. Fast stuff can be further mitigated with Breath Stealer, however, so it would have to be REALLY fast if your aoe placement on blight bringer is good.
Usually in these situations, the bane of the gargantuan who can't easily be muscled down becomes debuffing it, but Saeryn stops that too with Banishing Ward. So a Banishing Ward gargantuan with a blight bringer AoE in front of it is potentially very tough indeed, even without the feat turn.
I'm not sure if running a blightbringer+ogrun with her is much good for the rest of the list, but taking at least one gargantuan with her seems like a really good idea. I want to say that the feat would be good with durable infantry, but Legion isn't really in an ideal spot right now for that, and lacking a damage buff, I'm not inclined to trust the job to something like Legionnaires. Obviously hellmouths would be amazing with the feat and a blightbringer in the list, for an effective ARM 23 that makes them essentially invincible to actual damage rolls.
Being able to perfectly place Blight Bringer AoEs hinges on an arc node, though, so Zuriel is very useful here, as well as martyrs, and hellmouth tentacles make for excellent targets for perfect placement.
That would make the core of such a list Saeryn + Zuriel + Blightbringer + x2 Hellmouth. That's 40/75 points for a core of an extremely hard to remove gargantuan, a pair of occasionally-indestructible hellmouths, and a mobile zuriel for placing AoEs as needed (a good candidate for Respawn too). 15 points left if one unit of Ogrun Warspears is included. No idea what to do with the rest.
Alternately, 2 units of Ogrun with points to spare, but then you're depending on 3 martyrs for moving spells around, which seems dangerous (and leaves Saeryn missing fury).
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 7, 2017 15:39:03 GMT
It's good to hear from you Lanz.
I can't help but want to put swordsman in all my lists as well as raiders for jam.
With the BB buff +feat that's +2 Str +5 Arm and Retaliatory strike so you want a hard hitting unit you can jam hard with and put your opponent into a difficult positions. Arm 18 Swordsman are killable but not so killable where the threat of failure to kill them will result in a free Pow 13 WM hit in return isn't credible.
I was thinking Warmongers but I don't know if berserking can trigger off of Retaliatory strike.
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Post by Fox on Mar 7, 2017 16:40:51 GMT
I am sorry but Saeryns Feat gives retaliatory strike to battlegroup only.
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 7, 2017 17:06:15 GMT
I am sorry but Saeryns Feat gives retaliatory strike to battlegroup only. <---#rekt Never mind then. Wow......way worse then I first thought. In that case Take raiders for jam. |
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 7, 2017 17:12:16 GMT
Yeah, going light on the battlegroup means effectively giving up retaliatory strike. I'm not sure if retaliatory strike is that big a deal to begin with, though, since it's just one attack. Where I suppose it would matter most would be if you alpha strike, almost kill a bunch of models, then pop feat, so they risk getting themselves killed if they go after your battlegroup with their own damaged models. Combine that with Spiny Growth and potentially that's a fair bit of out-of-turn damage for an already-damaged heavy to risk taking.
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 7, 2017 18:18:24 GMT
What you want is a medium arm high POW model with that strat. That way the arm isn't to high to make your opponent consider attacking you under feat but then punish them for doing so.
Honestly your list reminds me a lot of DISTRACTION carnifex from 4th ed Tyranids. You have this kitted-out terror that the opponent focused on while the real danger was the little guys doing work. I don't know, other than swordsman, what the Legion equivalent to genestealers is.
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Post by malnorma on Mar 7, 2017 18:58:04 GMT
Although it's not relevant, I figured I'd add that berserk can't trigger off retaliatory strike, since the strike is out of activation.
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 7, 2017 19:02:56 GMT
Although it's not relevant, I figured I'd add that berserk can't trigger off retaliatory strike, since the strike is out of activation. Good to know. Also Disappointing.  |
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 7, 2017 19:07:43 GMT
What you want is a medium arm high POW model with that strat. That way the arm isn't to high to make your opponent consider attacking you under feat but then punish them for doing so. Honestly your list reminds me a lot of DISTRACTION carnifex from 4th ed Tyranids. You have this kitted-out terror that the opponent focused on while the real danger was the little guys doing work. I don't know, other than swordsman, what the Legion equivalent to genestealers is. It's probably just swordsmen for now. When our command book hits we'll have to see what other theme list opportunities there are. I would consider Ravens with this kind of approach, but you can't take a Blightbringer in Ravens. Then again, you could take an Archangel, and it benefits pretty much just as much from the Blight Bringer spell and the feat. |
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havik
Demo Gamer
Posts: 12
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Post by havik on Mar 7, 2017 19:27:58 GMT
So my question is, what is Saeryn supposed to be?
She was kinda sorta a control caster last edition but no where near the level of a Haley 1 or 2.
Now we just had a caster have their feat nurfed because it was identical to her old feat except it only affected lights. Now obviously we werent running lights at them last edition, they were getting 3 angels to the face. The difference being the cost (and flank with 3 initials being way more powerful)
So is MK2 Saeryn in MK3 OP? I dont see it as our beasts are overcosted (IMO). I see her as S tier into everyone but Cygnar but Not broken as una2.
So to go with this discussion into is Saeryn a gargantuan caster, I have been thinking that she would be awesome with Arcane Shield. That plus her current feat would IMO make her a pretty decent caster. a turn with 1 or 2 beasts with 6 plus armor (throw it on a garg or a few carniveans)
JMO
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 7, 2017 19:48:12 GMT
Yeah, she could probably use a buff somewhere. I keep saying I would love to see her get Telekinesis, since it's a staple control caster spell and would seem very thematic for her.
As for what she CURRENTLY does, however, I feel that the big things are the 5" Blight Bringer AOE shutting down enemy battlegroups, and the feat turn on heavies.
Theoretically, if we built Saeryn to be a beast-heavy attrition caster, we'd probably want something like a Seraph and a bunch of scytheans, and the general idea would be to alpha strike, do as much damage as possible, then pop feat and tank at ARM 21. If the scytheans did their job properly, any enemy heavies they cut into probably won't be dead, but they'll be badly damaged. Damaged enough that a retaliatory strike from the scythean seriously risks crippling or finishing off the beast, leaving your opponent between a rock and a hard place where their main tool of killing your beasts is at risk of falling apart if it tries to actually do its job.
All of this, however, hinges on A) The scytheans doing enough damage, B) Your opponent not having some kind of massive repair ability like Hellyna, Abby1, Darius, etc, C) The scytheans getting a significant alpha strike that lets you use the feat as the table-turner, and D) enough fury support to ensure the scytheans don't just frenzy next turn and defeat the whole purpose of this set-up.
Fury management is actually a big problem in this case. You basically would HAVE to take a pair of forsaken to keep up with a bunch of alpha strike heavies, and even then you're only going to be able to safely manage 4 heavies between Saeryn's fury and 2 forsaken.
Of course, scytheans might not even be the best pick for this. Maybe Typhon + carniveans, or something.
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Post by Garryth on Mar 7, 2017 22:41:13 GMT
Depending on the meta you play in, Searyn doesn't offer anything you need to fight the other staple lists.
A) Does she do anything against shooting? Except her "mediocre feat"? Not really...
B) Does she helpt with threat ranges? Neither
C) Does she have a damage buff? Nope...
D) Does she have a hit buff? Well yes, Breath stealer
E) Does she bring a control element? Blight bringer could be seen as such. But is it good enough?
Ofcourse all of these can be fixed. Seraph helps with threat ranges, BFS can help dmg and a seraph can help to hit aswell with flare. But then what does she do exactly?
That is the issue. She doesn't bring anything you're looking for in a Legion caster.
You want better threat ranges and damage? Play Abby2
You want assassination? Play Vayl2 or Lyl3 perhaps Kallus2 with Overrun?
You want attrition? Thags1 or Kallus1
You want to have some fun and play a defense skew? Try out the Twins.
She misses an extra element to her game that would make her contest with any of the above casters.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 8, 2017 0:19:01 GMT
I think she is an attrition warlock at this point, and probably compares to Thagrosh1 and Kallus1 better than those others.
In that capacity, however, she does have her own pros and cons. Kallus1 is in an awful state right now anyways since some of his favorite units got brutally-nerfed, and much of our best infantry doesn't care too much about his main attrition schtick; Unyielding.
Compared to those two, though, Saeryn DOES offer stuff they don't. Mainly Blight Bringer and her feat as an attrition tool, but also anti-magic and some threat control. While she doesn't help our threat ranges, she does affect enemy threat ranges, and remember that threat range is always relative. Debuffing your opponent's threat range by 2 creates the same threat range gap as buffing your own threat range by 2. You'll still out-threat something you were tied with by 2" in the final analysis.
Is she BETTER than thagrosh1 or Kallus1? She's probably better than Kallus1 for the aforementioned reasons. Thagrosh1 is one of my tournament casters, and I know his quality, so it's harder for me to say she'd do better than him when I have so much more experience with him in mk3.
Ultimately, though, it's not a question of being better or worse in an objective bubble. It's a matter of asking and answering questions. A Blightbringer or Archangel sitting behind a Blight Bringer AoE with Banishing Ward up and Breath Stealer being employed against the primary threat asks: "Can you deal with this?" If you cannot, then that's going to be a game that can go in your favor, whatever Saeryn's absolute strengths and weaknesses are.
I feel that Saeryn is an attrition caster with a lean more towards placement and tricks, rather than sheer durability and killing power. I think there's room to experiment with that.
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havik
Demo Gamer
Posts: 12
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Post by havik on Mar 8, 2017 1:54:56 GMT
i cant see her as an attrition caster.
unyielding is always on if you can get into cc. death shroud is always on within 10 inches of Thags1 (not to mention Eruption of ash or fog of war).
The only thing that Saeryn does is give our squishy Everything armor that makes their armor average at best.
Saeryn was a case of a caster that could have used a partial nurf to the feat like una2 received, but instead got a useless feat for our faction and zero direction. If you want to make her a control caster, giver her a control feat and fix breath stealer to prevent charges. If you like her feat, why not make it better...would +5 armor break it? Why not give stealth and +3 armor. Why not make her similar to Deny1 only buff her models.
Saeryn has no focus and needs one. Although it may be another case of PP saying, most legion players own Saeryn, time to make them buy another caster...
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 8, 2017 2:14:09 GMT
Again, she has Blight Bringer. I'm not sure how that spell can be overlooked. It's tremendously powerful.
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