Thagrosh2: A primer on The Messiah

---

So what does Thagrosh2 actually do?
Thagrosh2’s MO is actually pretty flexible. His biggest strengths are his assassination potential, his melee damage buffing, his personal damage output, and the out-of-turn movement from his feat. So he can win by attrition via high damage output paired with an escape mechanic, or he can win by assassination. He does both fairly well, and can generally build lists that will offer both without sacrificing one over the other. Principally, while he does emphasize power, he is less of an attrition caster, and move of a decisive caster. He doesn’t do much for the survival of his army outside of Dragon’s Blood and very clever use of his feat, so you want to be able to apply pressure to your opponent and use a combination of high-damage threat, outmaneuvering, and assassination-threat to win your games. Most of my games with Thagrosh2 end either on assassination, or on scenario following a decisive play that breaks my opponent's momentum or cripples their strength. Because Legion beasts are expensive, it’s generally not in your favor to just try to muscle through your opponent. Even with MD you won’t get the volume of attacks to bring down a ‘jackwall or something similar by brute-force alone. Thagrosh2’s tools can combine to give him a somewhat surgical edge, where you can combine a few different synergies in a given situation to execute an exceptional result. Because of this, Thagrosh2 can play very well into lists that depend on things like critical character models, or backbone super-heavies, colossals/gargantuans, or simply by assassinating casters.
Those aren't things you necessarily want to build for, they're more just a perk of how he'll play.

He’s Squishy!  (Lol he can slap around Butcher now)
Yes, I know he has 20 boxes, fury 7, and ARM 17, but he’s still squishy. Beefy as he looks, he really can’t take much punishment and being large-based isn’t helping. If you place him in danger, you stand a very real risk of losing him, and while he can play an aggressive and dynamic game, his own personal aggression needs to be handed out judiciously in order to make use of his tremendous killing power without getting him tremendously killed in the process. Never assume he’s safe, never assume he can ‘just take that hit’, he can’t. Those 20 boxes will vanish in a flash if you let them.
At innate DEF 14/ARM 18, with an internal +2 ARM buff, access to external buffs, an animus on top of that, transfers on top of THAT, and possibly including a protector, Wrongeye, swarms of lessers, or any other number of things, Thagrosh2 can be hilariously-tanky if you want to do that. He doesn't really need it. Just DEF 14 ARM 18, some transfers, and spiny growth/rapid healing will already make him too hard for conventional trick assassinations. It takes a serious melee threat to really threaten Thagrosh2 now. That said, don't be too careless, obviously. He's worth the commitment from your opponent if you just leave him hanging there. 

Use terrain!
You’re running a flying caster with a beast-heavy list that will mostly include other models with flight and/or pathfinder. This means your whole army can navigate terrain very well. Deploy with this in mind, and pick terrain features you want to exploit to plan your attacks around. If your opponent lacks a lot of flight/pathfinder themselves, fighting with terrain in mind can punish your opponent tremendously, and go very far in protecting your list from retaliation, as well as delivering them in the first place.

---

The assassination machine
So let's expand upon Scourge a bit. Firstly, you want spell martyrs with Thagrosh2. You always want at least 1. Always. If you do take just 1, it exists for the assassination. I like 3, because Thagrosh2 likes cheap solos anyways (see Rapture). Not every match-up will give you this opportunity, but have that martyr positioned to take it if it does. Martyrs lost some speed in mk3, but they can still bolt 10” and Scourge is another 8” off that, so that’s already 18” from wherever the martyr started. They have pathfinder now too, so this is a place you can use terrain to your advantage. To add to this set-up, scourge is an AOE3 and knocks everything under the AoE down, so you don’t have to actually hit the actual caster with it, you can hit something adjacent, or even run one of your own models into position (though be careful about engaging). If you can’t reliably hit your target, getting the martyr within about 4” makes it impossible for the AOE to deviate completely off a small base. Seraphs are good models to consider with Thagrosh, and Slipsteam can add another 2” to how far the martyr can move.

Now, after you’ve scourged your target, now what? Well, there are lots of ways to exploit that opportunity once you’ve created it. If you can get Thagrosh2 within 10” of the target, you can have him add his spray to it, and have enough fury to boost both damage rolls if you’re going for a ranged assassination. A seraph(again, a good choice with Thagrosh2) and Typhon on top of that can generally get into position without much difficulty to add their own attacks, and 5-8 boosted shots later, you have a dead caster. However, ranged assassination is just one option. Thagrosh2’s feat is a very dynamic feat, and one of the things you can do with it is run your beasts towards the enemy caster(possibly at the expense of their normal attacks), and then use the feat to move in and make a single attack. If you go this route, then you want to try and hit the enemy caster with an unboosted scourge so that you can still cast Manifest Destiny afterwards. The feat is still your turn, so MD will still be in effect during the feat. This kind of assassination can favor more mobile beasts like Raeks, Lessers, Angelii, etc. When you attempt this kind of assassination, you’re looking to cram as many models onto the enemy caster as you can, because they’re each only going to get a single unboosted attack (though it will benefit from Manifest Destiny). In this case, even something like a shredder, with MD and flank is averaging around a POW23-ish hit against a knocked down target. This is also a situation where something like Proteus can be amazing for pulling the enemy caster, especially if you just spent his activation exposing that caster.

Another assassination is obviously just having Thagrosh2 do the job personally. With Slipstream he has a 12” (13") personal threat range with flight, and stuff like Hellmouths and Proteus can potentially open a path to get him there. After casting Manifest Destiny, he can still make 5 attacks on the charge, and can potentially kill many casters on that alone, even if they’re camping. Alternately Scourge can be used on the charge and so long as you're the full 2" away, you won't be caught in your own scourge. Thagrosh2 only gets 4 attacks in that scenario, but they’re hitting automatically. I generally recommend either employing Scourge or MD if thagrosh2 is going in himself, because his base MAT7 is often very unreliable, and even if you’re considering boosting anyways, MD is going to be more efficient and net greater results. Obviously if your target is on a full camp, even Thagrosh2’s considerable damage output might not reliably do the job, and you should employ whatever non-warlock methods you can to up your odds before activating him (BFS, flare from seraph, wraithbane, etc).

Rapture, and where to use it
So Thagrosh2 has this big ass double-bladed sword, if you hadn’t noticed. It hits like a truck and can easily rip even tougher ‘jacks and beasts apart. Unfortunately, as mentioned above, Thagrosh2 is squishy, so you can’t go around willy-nilly hacking up everything that gets within 10” of you because you’ll just die afterwards. So where can you use Rapture? Well, there’s two things to keep in mind about Rapture. The first, obviously, is the face-wrecking PS18. The second, however, is Eruption of Ash, a very interesting and strategic tool which your familiarity of can win or cost you games. Because Thagrosh2 is squishy, you obviously want to only send him into melee where he’s not going to suffer any retaliation. Unfortunately, this means that the PS18 side of rapture isn’t actually used as often because conventional piece-trading realities typically means that taking out an enemy heavy means you’re probably in range to be charged by something scary yourself. In fact, you shouldn’t even necessarily be thinking of using rapture for offensive plays at all. What it IS good for in the damage-dealing capacity is unjamming your beasts so that they can do other things. So if you’ve got some meaty thing tying up Typhon, for example, that’s a situation where you’ll want to use Thagrosh2 to personally clear the enemy out. This is something that you generally won’t go out of your way to make happen, it’s just something you use when you need it. (So swing it around liberally. Just keep in mind that he's still your warlock and your opponent will throw a whole list at him if you let them. While he's tough and destructive, he's far from invulnerable).

But back to Eruption of Ash. EoA does three cool things: 1) It blocks LoS to thagrosh because its a cloud, 2) it creates a nasty hazard zone, and 3) it turns Rapture into a devastating AoE weapon where applicable. Because of this, Thagrosh2 can actually mulch infantry really well, especially if they’re clustered, though this is potentially one of the most dangerous risk-reward things you can do (addictive and fun). When you do it properly, he’s an untouchable killing machine that can chew through a unit on his own, but do it poorly and he just dies (still true, honestly). Positioning and target-choice is everything here. You want to attack targets on the edge of your reach so that you’re not within the resulting cloud effect, and so that it’s actually blocking LoS to things. You also want to make sure that your relative angle to your target is such that the cloud goes down somewhere that it’s blocking serious threats from thagrosh. Generally, your ideal goal is to pop two targets about 2.5” apart who are both about 1.8”(2” is best) away from Thagrosh2 himself. The end result is a nice two-piece cloud wall that blocks Thagrosh2 from a wide area, and potentially can allow more aggressive plays without retaliation. Of course, because everything under the cloud when it pops up takes a POW12, it will usually clear out whatever enemy troops were also in the AoE. As a result, any remaining troops in that unit are outside the clouds, and (if done right) don’t have LoS to charge thagrosh, or enough movement to get around the clouds in significant enough numbers to threaten him. Infantry generally can’t do much about it, since most single-wounds won’t survive a POW12, and stuff like Wall of Steel or Shield Wall can’t protect them while they’re advancing. Be wary of trampling heavies, fire immune models, models that can ignore clouds, and extreme armor buffs/feats that can allow infantry to survive even an automatic pow12. Obviously these things can all get around EoA.

Is Rapture all about Risk-reward, though? No, it isn’t, because Eruption of Ash does not have a friendly/enemy limitation. You can kill your own models for clouds, and this is the real reason I like to take max spell martyrs (as well as shepherds and any other appropriate cheap models). They are effectively personal cloud cover when you need it. Obviously the huge advantage here is that you can run a pair of solos to exactly where you need them and then kill them both with back strikes and set yourself up. Mk3 diminished this a bit due to no longer being able to charge friendly models, but realistically, you should be expecting to make regular advances with Thagrosh2 a lot anyways. It’s just the reality of a caster that wants to cast a spell every turn. Slipstream, again, helps here, too.

Ultimately, thagrosh2 wants to be in reasonably close proximity to his army where it’s possible, and EoA helps make him that much safer. He wants to be close enough to potentially contribute with as few barriers and dangers to himself.
While killing your own models is a limited strength, even just setting aside enough solos to make cloud cover for just 2 consecutive turns can give you huge advantages. You shouldn't plan to have thagrosh killing his dudes for clouds all game, just on important turns.

The Dragon Storm
One of thagrosh2’s most nuanced mechanics is his feat(PP tried to ruin it, but we saved it), which allows all the beasts in his battlegroup to make a full advance and an attack at the end of all activations. At a glance it may just look like an over-run/damage output feat, but that’s really only one use of it. At its core, it’s out-of-turn movement, like an army-wide sprint movement. This is a very big deal. Using the feat is a big part of your game plan overall because it can be used several ways and you’ll want to play into that to make the best use of it. You could even build a list around it, like I have. Some of the main things you can use the feat point are:

• Jamming: Following an aggressive turn where maybe you charged in and wrecked some heavies but are now stuck with your balls flailing in the wind, you can use the feat to have your important beasts back off, while more disposable but annoying beasts (this is where raeks and harriers come in) push forwards to jam up your opponent’s advance and stop them from getting at your aces for another turn.
  
  
• Hit-and-Run: I’ve built a list around this concept specifically, using an atypical beast load-out emphasizing higher speed flying beasts. With a more mobile battlegroup, especially flyers, the feat can be used to escape over/around terrain, or simply out of retaliation range to buy you another turn. A pair of Angelius can charge in, armor pierce, repulse, and escape with the feat for almost the same kind of effect that we once got out of Vayl2’s refuge. This is harder to use on an army-wide scale without building for it, but I can attest that it works if you do go that route.
  
  
• Extra damage: Obviously. The feat gives you an extra attack that will still benefit from MD. Typhon can make 9 attacks under the feat if he doesn’t charge. Thats a lot of damage. Maybe not enough to one-round a colossal by himself, but pretty close.
  
  
• Assassination: As covered above, beasts can use their activations to fight/maneuver into position to then advance and attack under the feat. You lose a lot of attacks, but the sheer threat range potential can be worth it, especially if you catch your opponent’s caster on little/no camp. It’s very difficult to prevent or plan against.
  
  
• Frenzy management: If you’re going to have explosive frenzies coming, the feat is an opportunity to rearrange models so that you can best preserve what you want to keep, or if nothing else, control where your beasts are likely to frenzy to direct attacks away from your own models. Or into them, if that’s preferable. This can simply be jamming the beasts you plan to frenzy into your opponent if you want to sacrifice them, or moving them off to the side and facing them away from your models so they can't get close enough to actually make an attack during the frenzy. 
  
  
• IT DOESN’T BENEFIT THAGROSH: At least not directly. Never forget that the only thing in the battlegroup that won’t benefit from the feat is the dragon himself. He’s stuck there with no out-of-turn movement and no extra attack. However, if you find yourself exposed on a critical turn, the feat can be used to reel in your beasts and cluster them around thagrosh to protect him. Not really ideal, but it beats being assassinated.

---

So... Theme lists. We’re all likely to be playing them a lot, so it’s important to talk about how they might impact Thagrosh2. As a disclaimer, I have NOT run Thagrosh2 with any theme lists yet (I only play him in theme now). The above ‘standard’ list is almost literally just my normal thagrosh2 list with some extra free points, so while I haven’t played it specifically, I have no reason to think it would be anything less than my normal list, but better (It basically amounts to a free soldier).

Oracles of Annihilation
This is probably the theme list you’ll play the most. It’s just paying for your fury support for you, and if nothing else will be 2 free forsaken and a free succubus/sorcereress. If you want to dial back the beasts a little bit, you could take a unit as well. One thing to keep in mind is that Thagrosh2 is only a +25 point caster, so with his WB points on a 75 point list, you MUST spend 100% of your points on warbeasts if you want 4 free solos.(can't do that now.) I, however, don’t recommend that simply because you’re so light on solos at that point and thagrosh2 likes solos, especially spell martyrs (and he likes ice witches). Also he’ll struggle to run that many beasts anyways. I find that 3 free solos with Oracles feels like the best compromise of getting a good ‘standard’ thagrosh2 list and getting as much free stuff as you can along the way. The list I posted above as a ‘standard’ list would be a pretty ideal Oracles list, but if you DO want to run 100% beasts, you’ll want to consider a sorceress and some flyers with the idea that they’ll pretty much never be getting fury support to act as your ‘screen’, except they’re MD and feat-friendly. Such a list could look something like this:

Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Typhon [24]
- Scythean [18]
- Seraph [14]
- Nephilim Soldier x2 [18]
- Nephilim Bloodseer [8]
- Afflictor x2 [18]
- Harrier x2 [8]
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion x2 [0]
The Forsaken x2 [0]
(Thagrosh2 doesn't really have too much trouble with managing beasts, but this really comes down to how your list is structured. Melee always costs more fury than ranged, so a pure-melee alpha list is going to vomit fury all over the table and you'll struggle to mop all that up in a single turn even with a ton of fury support. I like to balance ranged and melee because that reduces the max fury on the table in any given turn, and that's usually manageable by a pair of Forsaken)

Ravens of War
Ravens of War forces you into some very narrow specializations with Thagrosh2. While I haven't included it in the other lists, this is where Thagrosh2 actually runs an Archangel fairly well. It’s an obvious Dragon’s Blood target, it’s dynamic enough to help out in all of his areas of specialization, it’s fast, destructive, and even more destructive with MD. Basically it’s a big, flying, expensive second-typhon. The reason I usually don’t consider the Archangel is simply because its a lot of points into not a lot of melee attacks, and can make it hard to threaten armor much, despite Thagrosh2 often needing to be your armor-cracking list. In this case, the list dials back the raw killing power a bit, but picks up more harassment and assassination power, both from the specific types of beasts included, as well as your ambushers. For Thagrosh2 specifically, I strongly-strongly recommend going with Blightblades+Raiders as your minimum infantry investment, because 2 ambushing units actually does a lot. Normally Thagrosh2, dynamic as he is, has a very forward-facing threat range, and has difficulty spreading damage around. With the risk of ambushers on both sides of the table, you can funnel your opponent a bit, control where they can go, and ultimately open up your own opportunities to exploit terrain. A ravens list built to this kind of playstyle could look like this:

Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Typhon [24]
- Archangel [37]
- Seraph [14]
Grotesque Raiders (max) [12]
Strider Blightblades [10]
The Forsaken [0]
Spell Martyr x3 [3]
[Thagrosh 2] Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Archangel [37]
- Seraph [14]
- Typhon [20]
Spell Martyr [1]
Spell Martyr [1]
Spell Martyr [1]
The Forsaken [0(4)]
Grotesque Raiders (max) [12]
Hellmouth [6]
Hellmouth [6]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
(Ravens has Hellmouths now, and thagrosh2 likes hellmouths, so this is worth considering, but it's not a huge advantage over just playing out of theme)

This is obviously a very small and specialized list, but if you can use the threat of ambushers to dictate where your opponent goes, you can set up some punishing ranged assassinations.

Children of The Dragon
Easily my least-favorite theme list(That dubious distinction goes to Ravens of War, now), worse even still in this case because it both gears around infantry on a non-infantry caster, and it doesn’t allow seraphs. However, with all that said, it DOES do 2 things that can be worked with well in thagrosh2’s case. The first is, perhaps surprisingly, the +1 starting roll. Because Thagrosh2 can hinge so much on terrain to attack from, being able to control whether you go first or second (and by going second, control who will get what terrain) can actually be a REALLY big deal. Some matchups can hinge on exploitation of the right terrain features, and a +1 to the starting roll can certainly help with that. The second thing is that this list gives Nephilim unyielding, and as I mentioned previously, nephilim soldiers are actually fairly good with Thagrosh2. So if I were to take a crack at CoTD with Thagrosh2, I would seek to try and build something similar to my hit-’n-run list, with a much greater emphasis on nephilim soldiers. As with my Hit-’n-run list, it can potentially get away without the Seraph due to the innate threat range soldiers already have. In this case, full swordsmen with a warlord are included to help with breaking systems(but as mentioned, I haven't spent more than 15 points on the whole module), and a pair of Bolt Throwers help in the area of disengaging models with thunderbolts for the feat turn, or just controlling threat ranges. The raw damage output in this list is actually quite reasonably despite its emphasis on lights, though its ranged assassination options are greatly diminished due to only having 2 ranged attacks in the battlegroup outside of Thagrosh's own.

Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower x2 [22]
- Nephilim Soldier x4 [36]
- Typhon [24]
Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (max) [15]
- Blighted Nyss Swordsman Abbot & Champion [0]
Incubus (5) [0]
Spell Martyr x3 [3]
Blighted Nyss Warlord [0]

[Thagrosh 2] Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Azrael [21]
- Nephilim Protector [10]
- Nephilim Protector [10]
- Typhon [20]
- Zuriel [18]
- Succubus [0(4)]
Beast Mistress [0(4)]
- Harrier [3]
- Harrier [3]
- Harrier [3]
- Harrier [3]
Craelix, Fang of Everblight [0(6)]
Spell Martyr [1]
Spell Martyr [1]
Ice Witches [7]
(COTD changed with the addition of Zuriel and Azrael to the theme list. Thagrosh2 also changed to be a tanky beast. So what do you do when you have a tanky warlock who can sac pawn on lessers and is made harder to hit by using protectors? You take a ton of both. This is a list that gears more as a Thagrosh2 delivery system. Harriers and Protectors safeguard Thagrosh2 so he can play a much more aggressive direct role, alongside 3 solid character heavies who are all reasonably durable on top of being flexible and destructive. Craelix adds his toolbox to further push the strengths of the list, as well as the ubiquitous Ice Witches. This list still suffers the drawback of lacking a Seraph, but with Dragons' Blood, Guard Dog, Annoyance, Sac Pawn, concealment, shield guard, and Excessive Healing, Thagrosh2 is in a pretty good spot to just let the fun come to him while hurling dragon fire and giant javelins along the way. Due to all the fliers, a Sorceress would not be uncalled for here, too.)

**NEW**
Primal Terrors
Legion's newest theme list, built around Ogrun (which Thagrosh2 is) and infantry-heavy lists (which Thagrosh2 isn't). Like Oracles of Annihilation, it allows the full roster of beasts, which is definitely something that is good for Thagrosh2, but most of its advantages lean towards infantry, which doesn't play into his strengths too well. There are 3 main points of running Primal Terrors with Thagrosh2 over just running Oracles of Annihilation.
1) Golab: Golab has Lightning Strike, which obviously means Thagrosh2 can use it to hit and run. With his monumental damage output, he's potentially an extremely reliable sprinter, so this alone is absolutely a valid direction to go in, and potentially this rule alone would contribute more to Thagrosh2's aggression and survival than any amount of beasts stacked around him for durability. It helps that Golab is also a solid melee beast in his own right, made all the more deadly by Thagrosh2's toolbox.
2) Hellmouths. Just great in general, and generally hilarious dragon's blood targets.
3) +2" deployment: The passive benefit of the theme list, and always nice to have. Makes hellmouths all the more scary, too.
So with this in mind, there's potentially a lot you can do to make a list tailored around buffing and delivering Thagrosh2. Right off the bat you have lightning strike, access to slipstream, access to a blightbringer, and access to carniveans, protectors, harriers, etc. Most of this won't contribute to the theme benefits however, so you're risking losing out on a lot to include it all. Fundementally, you'd want to start with Golab, and 20 points of infantry to get a free hellmouth. I consider this a good basic compromise of getting good theme benefits without being shoehorned into any specific build. From there, you can go with a beast-heavy list like you would run with Oracles, or can go more infantry heavy with Thagrosh2 darting in and out with sprint, or you can go the overbuffed thagrosh2 route with all the various bells and whistles to turn him into some silly DEF 16 ARM 24 PS20 flying catastrophe. While the last of those sounds the most amusing, it's still potentially pouring a boatload of points into one model that can only do his one activation per turn with it, so there's diminishing returns to building a whole list around buffing Thagrosh2. I think a good compromise is to go with a more beast-heavy loadout, while including several 'usual suspects' that can make thagrosh2 more scary.

[Thagrosh 2] Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Blightbringer [32]
- Carnivean [18]
- Golab [17]
- Nephilim Protector [10]
Spell Martyr [1]
Spell Martyr [1]
Spell Martyr [1]
Chosen of Everblight (max) [20]
Hellmouth [0(6)]

This list is a bit lighter on the beast loadout, but the blightbringer becomes a strategic powerhouse here, opening up targets for Golab's hit-and-run, or dropping buffs for thagrosh, the ogrun, and the hellmouths. Hellmouths with dragon's blood plus Dragon's Breath are notoriously-difficult to remove, giving you an anchor to play around, while the Chosen are similarly-difficult to remove with those same buffs while also being reasonably hard-hitting and mobile. Golab and Thagrosh2 working in tandem can potentially have a disproportionate impact on the piece trade vs other heavies if they can consistently make kills and escape with lightning strike. It still plays something like a beast-heavy thagrosh2 list, except you're recycling Golab and Thagrosh2's killing power instead of having more beasts on the table. Risky, but potentially as rewarding as it is powerful. Of course, on top of all this, Thagrosh2 with all his nasty buffs is DEF 16 vs melee, and a whopping ARM 24 after Spiny Growth, Dragon's Blood and Draconic Breath. Or ARM 22 with sprint. Attrition-style Thagrosh2!

Lanz amazing writeup! Im gonna have to assemble my King Dragon. One note, I think u forgot to mention what Thags' feat actually is, or at least reading I expected a sum up of his feat after his spell lsit, especially as u start mentioning his feat in ur next section.

An absolutely fantastic write-up. I haven't played Thagrosh2 quite as long as you since I started playing him right around the time the Gargantuans book released but I have to say from my own experience I agree with literally every single point that you've made here. Really good work dude, you're almost making me want to start playing Thags2 again (this edition I've been all-in on Abby2 and Fyanna2 instead).

Great write up. I like the attention to lists in each theme. Nearly inspired.

If you charge a model at max reach and scourge it, the AOE deviates 1" and will not hit thagrosh. It's good for trying to kill a caster. Charge, scourge, hit with charge and three pow 18

Thags problem right now is that the game is incredibly ranged dependent right now. Most lists out threat what he brings to the table and it's hard to hide thagrosh. It's why Abby2 is taken more than him right now. She provides the speed and mobility to get in first and do enough damage. Thags offers a way out with the feat, similar to vayl1