Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 4:23:12 GMT
**Thagrosh2 was recently overhauled in CID. New stuff is in bold, old stuff that no longer applies has been crossed out** ForwardI’m making this because I’ve played Thagrosh2 since the start of mk2. He’s been my most played caster of every faction I currently own since then, and almost always makes it into my tournament pairings. I generally share a lot of insight on Thagrosh2 anyways, and I do some unusual things with him these days that I’ve been loosely explaining all over the place that will be included in this. I suppose writing a Thagrosh2 tactica is long overdo, given how much time I spend on him, so I’m going to try and cram hundreds of games of insight into this. This isn’t any kind of definitive ‘way’ Thagrosh2 is or should be played. It’s just what I personally have learned, practiced, and succeeded with. ProfileThagrosh2’s stats aren’t amazing, overall. He’s not terribly durable(more on this later), his MAT isn’t amazing, and his speed is a bit sluggish. (His stats are amazing now) What he does have that is pretty amazing is the PS18 on Rapture, which is a pretty excessive damage stat when you realize he can make 8 attacks on the charge. Thagrosh2 can’t take much punishment, but he can definitely dish it out when he has to.(Thagrosh2 can faceroll everything now) In addition to Rapture (and his fist, but you’ll probably rarely use that for obvious reasons), he has an actually-pretty-decent( awesome, actually) spray. Thagrosh2’s Blight Fire is something to always keep in mind and it did get a bit better in mk3, not only because of the spray interactions with shield guard, but also because it dropped the cold damage type but retained critical stationary. I don’t use the spray nearly as much as I do Rapture, but the spray has won me games in the past. Don’t forget he has it. And it's magical now. Magical icefire that sets things on fire and freezes them solid, yet doesn't actually count as cold or fire damage. Because blight. Special RulesFlight: This is actually important. Yeah, he’s only speed 5(a flying blighted muscle-ninja), but being able to hop over your own warbeasts and terrain features is absolutely a perk just the same, especially since he’s a large base. It eases up several movement problems, and consequently he can actually position fairly well for a SPD 5. This is the difference of not having to activate that stupid solo that you forgot about who would otherwise be in your way, or making a charge that would have been otherwise ruined because you would have clipped the edge of a friendly base along your charge path. It matters. Athanc: The basic footnote to keep in mind with this is that you basically never need to rile your beasts and you never need to cut for fury. Thagrosh2 will always have all the fury he needs, regardless of how much or little you have on the table. So if you’re running something like a Sorceress + flyers, absolutely feel free to go minimalist on the fury generation. It also can help in certain specific circumstances, like Mohsar’s feat, since the Fury you get from the athanc is gained, not leeched, so anti-leeching tech won’t prevent it. Likewise it also means that anti-leeching tech won’t stop you from getting your fury each turn. Blood Spawn: A nifty rule, really. It actually is one of the few cases where the new lessers are actually better for Thagrosh2. Or, at least, the harrier is anyways. Thagrosh2’s base defense is not amazing, but if something jumps you, popping out a harrier for Annoyance can make him effectively DEF14 unless they’re willing to redirect attacks onto the hapless harrier instead (which is still good for you because those are wasted attacks). Since it’s potentially popping in mid-activation, it can really screw things up for your opponent sometimes. Yes, I’ve actually had a harrier save me. That really happened. If nothing else, it’s an extra 13 boxes of transfer target that isn’t the warbeasts you actually paid for. Also, keep in mind that the 5-damage requirement has been lifted in mk3, so a single-damage plink from a widowmaker can give you a lesser if you so choose. *NEW*Sac Pawn[Lesser]: Makes the above rule especially-nifty. In my experience so far, you don't NEED to actually bring lessers to justify this rule. Just the one he can spawn is already awesome with this, and while you can experiment with lessers all you like, I find they're still not efficient enough to go overboard on. Maybe a pair of harriers at most for me, and with smart placement that's already a huge boost to his survival. And yeah, he has tough. Lol. (No, tough has had no impact on any of my games so far (still)) SpellsThagrosh has 3 main spells that you’ll probably use every single game, and two spells you might never ever ever use then he has aggravator. - Dragon’s Blood: A basic model/unit armor buff. The secondary effect is a bit more useless than mk2 in my opinion, but it’s still there.
The biggest drawback is Thagrosh2 can’t use it on himself(He freaking can now!), but it’s great for tanking up your favorite warbeast, or a hellmouth, or something. I used to take Legionnaires in mk2 and give it to them, and if they become cost-effective again, that would still be a legitimate use. I put it on a throne a lot.
- Manifest Destiny: This is one of your main reasons for playing thagrosh2. If it wasn’t, it will be. So, something to keep in mind here is that Legion warbeasts, on the whole, can be pretty attack-heavy. It’s not unusual to get 6-7 attacks out of a warbeast, or as many as 8 in the case of something like Typhon. Because of this the benefits of attack/damage buffs are sort of multiplicative, so even though MD isn’t a HUGE buff on a per-attack basis, it pans out across 6+ attacks to be pretty devastating by the time your activation is over. Generally any legion beast in the PS16+ attack range will have pretty good odds of one-rounding other heavies under MD, and the meatier stuff like a Carnivean or Typhon can potentially overkill a heavy with enough fury left to still pop their animi. On average you can expect about 1.5-2 more damage average per attack, so across 7 attacks that’s an extra 6-12 or so damage. It really depends on dice, but it generally will save you from awful rolls, and make good rolls amazing.
- Scourge: This is a clutch assassination tool for Thagrosh2. You’ll always want spell martyrs in your list because of Scourge, and there’s a whole volume of assassination options that start with it. In fact, there’s so much going on here, that it gets its own section further down.
Flesh Eater: I actually cast this once last game I played. I think it was the first time I’ve ever cast it in like 5 years. Sometimes you need a source of magical damage, and here it is, but between Manifest Destiny, healing, camping, and being able to just boost his spray, it’s very rare that you’ll have the fury to cast it even if you’re inclined to.
Unnatural Aggression: This is a very unfortunate spell. In mk2 it was weird, but I made use of it. Now it’s sorta useless. In mk3, I find every time I cast it, it’s just a waste of upkeep fury on a caster who already has plenty to spend fury on. Unless you’re going against a gunline and you know that UA will will only give you extra threat range to close quicker, it’s almost always a waste of fury, or a risk that will feed your warbeast to your opponent. It’s worth noting that it can be put on any target, not just a warbeast, but since it has to get shot, take damage, and survive, the number of targets that it’s useful for are very slim. Theoretically you could do some weird combo with this and the Sorceress’ Wind Ravager to ram anti-shooting down your opponent’s throat in the middle of their own turn, but it’s woefully-predictable and very corner-case.
- Aggravator: Not an amazing spell, not an awful spell. If you're getting free upkeeps from a succubus, or free casts from Oracles (or both), it's probably worth having up early game, since it's your call when and where you want to trigger it. The important thing to keep in mind with hyper-aggressive is that you can just move half an inch if you want. You don't have to go blasting off into your opponent's lines every time they shoot you. Where Aggravator has an advantage is that it's wide-spread, so your opponent can't just cherry pick the model to ignore or exploit. ANY shooting they use will potentially generate movement from your army, and they have to take that into account just as you have to take into account where it's safe to squeeze in a few extra inches of movement with it. Make no mistake; Hyper-aggressive IS a trap when used poorly, and it does come down to who is the smarter player. I recommend using it just to edge a small distance closer, while keeping in mind enemy threat ranges. If both players are canny, your best case scenario is using the movement to get to the point that you're just toeing out of their threat range.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 4:41:28 GMT
Main Play Points So what does Thagrosh2 actually do?Thagrosh2’s MO is actually pretty flexible. His biggest strengths are his assassination potential, his melee damage buffing, his personal damage output, and the out-of-turn movement from his feat. So he can win by attrition via high damage output paired with an escape mechanic, or he can win by assassination. He does both fairly well, and can generally build lists that will offer both without sacrificing one over the other. Principally, while he does emphasize power, he is less of an attrition caster, and move of a decisive caster. He doesn’t do much for the survival of his army outside of Dragon’s Blood and very clever use of his feat, so you want to be able to apply pressure to your opponent and use a combination of high-damage threat, outmaneuvering, and assassination-threat to win your games. Most of my games with Thagrosh2 end either on assassination, or on scenario following a decisive play that breaks my opponent's momentum or cripples their strength. Because Legion beasts are expensive, it’s generally not in your favor to just try to muscle through your opponent. Even with MD you won’t get the volume of attacks to bring down a ‘jackwall or something similar by brute-force alone. Thagrosh2’s tools can combine to give him a somewhat surgical edge, where you can combine a few different synergies in a given situation to execute an exceptional result. Because of this, Thagrosh2 can play very well into lists that depend on things like critical character models, or backbone super-heavies, colossals/gargantuans, or simply by assassinating casters. Those aren't things you necessarily want to build for, they're more just a perk of how he'll play.
He’s Squishy! (Lol he can slap around Butcher now)Yes, I know he has 20 boxes, fury 7, and ARM 17, but he’s still squishy. Beefy as he looks, he really can’t take much punishment and being large-based isn’t helping. If you place him in danger, you stand a very real risk of losing him, and while he can play an aggressive and dynamic game, his own personal aggression needs to be handed out judiciously in order to make use of his tremendous killing power without getting him tremendously killed in the process. Never assume he’s safe, never assume he can ‘just take that hit’, he can’t. Those 20 boxes will vanish in a flash if you let them.
At innate DEF 14/ARM 18, with an internal +2 ARM buff, access to external buffs, an animus on top of that, transfers on top of THAT, and possibly including a protector, Wrongeye, swarms of lessers, or any other number of things, Thagrosh2 can be hilariously-tanky if you want to do that. He doesn't really need it. Just DEF 14 ARM 18, some transfers, and spiny growth/rapid healing will already make him too hard for conventional trick assassinations. It takes a serious melee threat to really threaten Thagrosh2 now. That said, don't be too careless, obviously. He's worth the commitment from your opponent if you just leave him hanging there. Use terrain!You’re running a flying caster with a beast-heavy list that will mostly include other models with flight and/or pathfinder. This means your whole army can navigate terrain very well. Deploy with this in mind, and pick terrain features you want to exploit to plan your attacks around. If your opponent lacks a lot of flight/pathfinder themselves, fighting with terrain in mind can punish your opponent tremendously, and go very far in protecting your list from retaliation, as well as delivering them in the first place. The Messiah's tricks
The assassination machineSo let's expand upon Scourge a bit. Firstly, you want spell martyrs with Thagrosh2. You always want at least 1. Always. If you do take just 1, it exists for the assassination. I like 3, because Thagrosh2 likes cheap solos anyways (see Rapture). Not every match-up will give you this opportunity, but have that martyr positioned to take it if it does. Martyrs lost some speed in mk3, but they can still bolt 10” and Scourge is another 8” off that, so that’s already 18” from wherever the martyr started. They have pathfinder now too, so this is a place you can use terrain to your advantage. To add to this set-up, scourge is an AOE3 and knocks everything under the AoE down, so you don’t have to actually hit the actual caster with it, you can hit something adjacent, or even run one of your own models into position (though be careful about engaging). If you can’t reliably hit your target, getting the martyr within about 4” makes it impossible for the AOE to deviate completely off a small base. Seraphs are good models to consider with Thagrosh, and Slipsteam can add another 2” to how far the martyr can move. Now, after you’ve scourged your target, now what? Well, there are lots of ways to exploit that opportunity once you’ve created it. If you can get Thagrosh2 within 10” of the target, you can have him add his spray to it, and have enough fury to boost both damage rolls if you’re going for a ranged assassination. A seraph(again, a good choice with Thagrosh2) and Typhon on top of that can generally get into position without much difficulty to add their own attacks, and 5-8 boosted shots later, you have a dead caster. However, ranged assassination is just one option. Thagrosh2’s feat is a very dynamic feat, and one of the things you can do with it is run your beasts towards the enemy caster(possibly at the expense of their normal attacks), and then use the feat to move in and make a single attack. If you go this route, then you want to try and hit the enemy caster with an unboosted scourge so that you can still cast Manifest Destiny afterwards. The feat is still your turn, so MD will still be in effect during the feat. This kind of assassination can favor more mobile beasts like Raeks, Lessers, Angelii, etc. When you attempt this kind of assassination, you’re looking to cram as many models onto the enemy caster as you can, because they’re each only going to get a single unboosted attack (though it will benefit from Manifest Destiny). In this case, even something like a shredder, with MD and flank is averaging around a POW23-ish hit against a knocked down target. This is also a situation where something like Proteus can be amazing for pulling the enemy caster, especially if you just spent his activation exposing that caster. Another assassination is obviously just having Thagrosh2 do the job personally. With Slipstream he has a 12” (13") personal threat range with flight, and stuff like Hellmouths and Proteus can potentially open a path to get him there. After casting Manifest Destiny, he can still make 5 attacks on the charge, and can potentially kill many casters on that alone, even if they’re camping. Alternately Scourge can be used on the charge and so long as you're the full 2" away, you won't be caught in your own scourge. Thagrosh2 only gets 4 attacks in that scenario, but they’re hitting automatically. I generally recommend either employing Scourge or MD if thagrosh2 is going in himself, because his base MAT7 is often very unreliable, and even if you’re considering boosting anyways, MD is going to be more efficient and net greater results. Obviously if your target is on a full camp, even Thagrosh2’s considerable damage output might not reliably do the job, and you should employ whatever non-warlock methods you can to up your odds before activating him (BFS, flare from seraph, wraithbane, etc). Rapture, and where to use itSo Thagrosh2 has this big ass double-bladed sword, if you hadn’t noticed. It hits like a truck and can easily rip even tougher ‘jacks and beasts apart. Unfortunately, as mentioned above, Thagrosh2 is squishy, so you can’t go around willy-nilly hacking up everything that gets within 10” of you because you’ll just die afterwards. So where can you use Rapture? Well, there’s two things to keep in mind about Rapture. The first, obviously, is the face-wrecking PS18. The second, however, is Eruption of Ash, a very interesting and strategic tool which your familiarity of can win or cost you games. Because Thagrosh2 is squishy, you obviously want to only send him into melee where he’s not going to suffer any retaliation. Unfortunately, this means that the PS18 side of rapture isn’t actually used as often because conventional piece-trading realities typically means that taking out an enemy heavy means you’re probably in range to be charged by something scary yourself. In fact, you shouldn’t even necessarily be thinking of using rapture for offensive plays at all. What it IS good for in the damage-dealing capacity is unjamming your beasts so that they can do other things. So if you’ve got some meaty thing tying up Typhon, for example, that’s a situation where you’ll want to use Thagrosh2 to personally clear the enemy out. This is something that you generally won’t go out of your way to make happen, it’s just something you use when you need it. (So swing it around liberally. Just keep in mind that he's still your warlock and your opponent will throw a whole list at him if you let them. While he's tough and destructive, he's far from invulnerable).But back to Eruption of Ash. EoA does three cool things: 1) It blocks LoS to thagrosh because its a cloud, 2) it creates a nasty hazard zone, and 3) it turns Rapture into a devastating AoE weapon where applicable. Because of this, Thagrosh2 can actually mulch infantry really well, especially if they’re clustered, though this is potentially one of the most dangerous risk-reward things you can do (addictive and fun). When you do it properly, he’s an untouchable killing machine that can chew through a unit on his own, but do it poorly and he just dies (still true, honestly). Positioning and target-choice is everything here. You want to attack targets on the edge of your reach so that you’re not within the resulting cloud effect, and so that it’s actually blocking LoS to things. You also want to make sure that your relative angle to your target is such that the cloud goes down somewhere that it’s blocking serious threats from thagrosh. Generally, your ideal goal is to pop two targets about 2.5” apart who are both about 1.8”(2” is best) away from Thagrosh2 himself. The end result is a nice two-piece cloud wall that blocks Thagrosh2 from a wide area, and potentially can allow more aggressive plays without retaliation. Of course, because everything under the cloud when it pops up takes a POW12, it will usually clear out whatever enemy troops were also in the AoE. As a result, any remaining troops in that unit are outside the clouds, and (if done right) don’t have LoS to charge thagrosh, or enough movement to get around the clouds in significant enough numbers to threaten him. Infantry generally can’t do much about it, since most single-wounds won’t survive a POW12, and stuff like Wall of Steel or Shield Wall can’t protect them while they’re advancing. Be wary of trampling heavies, fire immune models, models that can ignore clouds, and extreme armor buffs/feats that can allow infantry to survive even an automatic pow12. Obviously these things can all get around EoA. Is Rapture all about Risk-reward, though? No, it isn’t, because Eruption of Ash does not have a friendly/enemy limitation. You can kill your own models for clouds, and this is the real reason I like to take max spell martyrs (as well as shepherds and any other appropriate cheap models). They are effectively personal cloud cover when you need it. Obviously the huge advantage here is that you can run a pair of solos to exactly where you need them and then kill them both with back strikes and set yourself up. Mk3 diminished this a bit due to no longer being able to charge friendly models, but realistically, you should be expecting to make regular advances with Thagrosh2 a lot anyways. It’s just the reality of a caster that wants to cast a spell every turn. Slipstream, again, helps here, too. Ultimately, thagrosh2 wants to be in reasonably close proximity to his army where it’s possible, and EoA helps make him that much safer. He wants to be close enough to potentially contribute with as few barriers and dangers to himself. While killing your own models is a limited strength, even just setting aside enough solos to make cloud cover for just 2 consecutive turns can give you huge advantages. You shouldn't plan to have thagrosh killing his dudes for clouds all game, just on important turns. The Dragon StormOne of thagrosh2’s most nuanced mechanics is his feat (PP tried to ruin it, but we saved it), which allows all the beasts in his battlegroup to make a full advance and an attack at the end of all activations. At a glance it may just look like an over-run/damage output feat, but that’s really only one use of it. At its core, it’s out-of-turn movement, like an army-wide sprint movement. This is a very big deal. Using the feat is a big part of your game plan overall because it can be used several ways and you’ll want to play into that to make the best use of it. You could even build a list around it, like I have. Some of the main things you can use the feat point are: - Jamming: Following an aggressive turn where maybe you charged in and wrecked some heavies but are now stuck with your balls flailing in the wind, you can use the feat to have your important beasts back off, while more disposable but annoying beasts (this is where raeks and harriers come in) push forwards to jam up your opponent’s advance and stop them from getting at your aces for another turn.
- Hit-and-Run: I’ve built a list around this concept specifically, using an atypical beast load-out emphasizing higher speed flying beasts. With a more mobile battlegroup, especially flyers, the feat can be used to escape over/around terrain, or simply out of retaliation range to buy you another turn. A pair of Angelius can charge in, armor pierce, repulse, and escape with the feat for almost the same kind of effect that we once got out of Vayl2’s refuge. This is harder to use on an army-wide scale without building for it, but I can attest that it works if you do go that route.
- Extra damage: Obviously. The feat gives you an extra attack that will still benefit from MD. Typhon can make 9 attacks under the feat if he doesn’t charge. Thats a lot of damage. Maybe not enough to one-round a colossal by himself, but pretty close.
- Assassination: As covered above, beasts can use their activations to fight/maneuver into position to then advance and attack under the feat. You lose a lot of attacks, but the sheer threat range potential can be worth it, especially if you catch your opponent’s caster on little/no camp. It’s very difficult to prevent or plan against.
- Frenzy management: If you’re going to have explosive frenzies coming, the feat is an opportunity to rearrange models so that you can best preserve what you want to keep, or if nothing else, control where your beasts are likely to frenzy to direct attacks away from your own models. Or into them, if that’s preferable. This can simply be jamming the beasts you plan to frenzy into your opponent if you want to sacrifice them, or moving them off to the side and facing them away from your models so they can't get close enough to actually make an attack during the frenzy.
- IT DOESN’T BENEFIT THAGROSH: At least not directly. Never forget that the only thing in the battlegroup that won’t benefit from the feat is the dragon himself. He’s stuck there with no out-of-turn movement and no extra attack. However, if you find yourself exposed on a critical turn, the feat can be used to reel in your beasts and cluster them around thagrosh to protect him. Not really ideal, but it beats being assassinated.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 4:59:40 GMT
The Dragon's Cohorts
Beasts Thagrosh2 primarily benefits beasts. MD is battlegroup-only, his feat only works on them and his assassination tricks often include them. While Thagrosh2 really can make a lot of beasts pretty impressive, several beasts really stand out with him. Those are the Seraph, Typhon, Proteus, Lessers, and Raeks. Azrael will likely be a good beast with him too. - Seraph: In case it’s not clear by this point, a lot of thagrosh2’s tricks work well with the support of a Seraph. It increases his personal threat range, it helps his beasts the same way, it helps keep thagrosh2 mobile, and it can help both set up and execute assassinations. If a Seraph is not the first thing you add to the list, you better have a really good reason, because otherwise it just synergizes too well to leave out. You probably don’t need more than 1, though. I’ve never felt the need for more than 1.
- Typhon: Typhon is really just a great beast in Mk3 overall, but with Thagrosh2 it has some extra perks. Obviously the bond gives them both some increased healing, firstly. Thagrosh2 really shouldn’t be taking a lot of damage to begin with(because he's a tanky brute), but because he’s got a lot of boxes and generally wants to be spending fury on spells, it can be prohibitively-expensive to heal off the bits of damage he may take here and there, and the bond can help with that a bit. Excessive Healing is also nice to have as just something to help with Thagrosh2’s survivability. Beyond that, Typhon is an amazing finisher to follow up on a scourge assassination, and with dragon’s blood and his animus, he can be incredibly tanky if he needs to. Everything you would want to do with thagrosh2, Typhon generally fits well into.
Proteus: Like Typhon, Proteus is good regardless, and like Typhon he gains some extra quirks with Thagrosh2. Like any caster who can improve damage output, proteus enters anti-armor territory with almost any damage buff, including Manifest Destiny. In addition, dragon’s blood plus unyielding can make him very durable. MD also makes him incredibly accurate on his base MAT 7 and he’ll just devour units if you need that. Beyond that, his tentacles can be used to open opportunities both for thagrosh2’s own exploitation, or during the feat. (while this all technically still applies, you'll probably be playing in theme, in which case no proteus)
- Lessers: Lessers aren’t actually all that big a deal with Thagrosh2, so much as they deserve consideration in a faction meta that otherwise might forget they exist a lot. The main thing about the lessers, particularly the Shredder, is that they are really good beasts for the feat turn. They can cluster very well, getting as many as 6 of them on a small-base model, and can just fit in wherever you can squeeze them for extra decent-damage hits. Meanwhile, a harrier is probably one of the absolute best things to pop out from Blood Creation if Thagrosh is in danger, due to Annoyance.(With Sac-Pawn, lessers are that much more of a consideration with Thagrosh2) Included in this, Blight Wasps can also be a consideration, but I have extremely little experience with using Blight Wasps under Thagrosh2, so I don’t want to say much about them. In theory they offer more clustering than shredders for the assassination turn on a higher threat range, at the expense of being lower damage.
- Raeks: Raeks are very handy under Thagrosh2 for the feat turn. They can cover a lot of ground in one go, and their attacks are pretty decent under MD. What’s more, long leash lets them take the benefits of MD out of thagrosh2’s control range. They’re just very flexible overall. They also can jam very well on the feat turn. You can easily consider 2-3 Raeks where points allow.
- Nephilim Soldiers: Manifest Destiny helps all beasts in both accuracy and damage. Soldiers sit on this sour-spot where they are just barely below the curve of what would make them good at their job using precision strike. Against most 'jacks they can make a boosted charge, and then a boosted bought attack and just barely take out a cortex, but against heavier stuff they'll fall short, and that's just not acceptable. With Thagrosh2, however, MD helps a lot with dice, and it gets better the more dice you roll, so being a beast that will usually boost its damage rolls anyways, Soldiers get enough from MD that gutting cortexes out of even ARM20 juggernauts is within average projections. Because of this, Soldiers can make great cheap anti-heavies that help level the playing field against cheap, numerous 'jackspam.
- Archangels: Everything that I said about Typhon? Basically applies to the Archangel as well. It is a flexible and all-purpose beast, and thagrosh2 likes that. It can contribute in melee and at range, and while it loses out on the movement from the feat (which is indeed a big deal), it still has its own out-of-turn movement, and it has an innate threat range that is as good as most beasts+slipstream, so its inability to benefit from that isn't as harshly felt. On top of all this, an archangel with a free charge, MD, and an extra attack on the feat is going to bring serious pain on whatever it gets its mitts on. (With its new amazing animus, the archangel can be a cornerstone to a strong thagrosh2 shooting list that hits hard at range, then finishes in melee)
- Carniveans: A source of a good armor buff for thagrosh, a contributor on the feat assassination (rat
4 is fine when the target is knocked down anyways 5 is great), and a brute in melee. While the Carnivean doesn't exactly need Manifest Destiny to wreck a heavy, it is still potentially enough raw damage that a Carnivean might, on good rolls (and maybe with the help of the feat), do enough damage to one-round a heavy with enough fury to spare that it can use its animus. Carniveans are pretty amazing when they can take out a heavy and still have spiny growth up.
InfantryThagrosh2 doesn’t do a whole lot for infantry, but he can make use of at least 1 unit for screening his beasts typically. Generally his favorites are anything cheap and hard to kill or at least self-sufficient. 1-2 Hellmouths are good here, as well as Striders, and Swordsmen(though you probably don't want to throw too many points into swordsmen in this case. Just the base full unit at 15 points is fine). Under a theme list like Oracles (which you may find yourself playing a lot anyways with Thagrosh2), hex hunters are a fine choice as well. You generally don’t want to be spending more than about 15 points on infantry in most cases. It just doesn’t benefit you that much. The only exception would be Ravens of War, where you might want 20 points for your free solo. Even with something like Children of The Dragon, you'll use the theme benefits to fill out units, maybe, but probably won't want to spend more than 15 of your actual points. Primal Terrors is also worth 20 points of infantry for a free hellmouth. An exception to all this is the Ice Witches, which might as well be Legion's 'choir' for how useful they are, and thagrosh2 is no exception. Puppet Master can save a botched assassination, maximize single important attacks (like ravagore shots and angelius stabs), and are just good to have. SolosThagrosh2 doesn't really have much solo preference outside of fury support and spell martyrs. Oracles gives you free forsaken, so you'll probably have a pair of those a lot, and beyond that I try to get 3 shepherd and 3 spell martyrs where possible, since their core uses are all good with Thagrosh2, but also because they're easy victims for Eruption of Ash. List Samples
There are two main lists I run with Thagrosh2. One is what I would call the ‘standard’ thagrosh2 list, which many thagrosh2 players will often run some variant of. The other is a list I engineered specifically for fighting ‘jack-heavy warmachine lists, and to be specifically paired with my tanky thagrosh1 list to cover various matchups. I would call it a very powerful list, but it’s designed for very specific match-ups, a very specific pairing, and a very specific playstyle, so your mileage may vary. For the purpose of this tactica, I mention it mainly to illustrate how varied Thagrosh2 lists can be, where you can bend (and break) the rules, and how certain rules can impact your gameplan.
Standard List
Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Typhon [24]
- Scythean [18]
- Seraph [14]
- Raek x2 [16]
- Nephilim Soldier x2 [18]
- Shredder [4]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd x3 [3]
Spell Martyr x3 [3]
The Forsaken x2 [0]
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0]
While I plan to talk about the theme lists independently of these sample lists, the simple fact of the matter is that playing this style of list into Oracles is simply free points. Free points are good. So this list takes most of what’s mentioned above and throws it all together. Seraph is in, as well as Typhon and a Scythean(who could be proteus out of theme), who are all great with Thagrosh2. Abundant cheap solos are included as well. A list like this can do all the things we’ve talked about. It has excellent decisive killing power, and a strong assassination game. The whole army can contribute to both of these things. What you generally DON’T want to drop a list like this into is something that somehow manages to completely out-threat it (or maybe has lots of drags, like Prime Axiom, Helios etc), and Gunlines. You are heavily dependent on terrain against such match-ups, but on the upside, the whole army (more or less) is pathfinder or flight, so you absolutely can and should exploit terrain wherever possible, and such exploitation could give you a winning chance even against those bad match-ups.
Hit ‘n run list
Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25]
- Zuriel [18]
- Angelius x2 [34]
- Nephilim Soldier x2 [18]
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [6]
Spell Martyr x3 [3]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd x2 [2]
Gremlin Swarm x2 [6]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Hellmouth x2 [12]
This list is designed to fulfill a very specific gameplan against ‘jack-heavy lists. You go in using the best terrain piece you can find in the best position to strike from. You hit with Zuriel and the soldiers with the express objective of gutting whatever system is best (cortex, typically), and then jam with tentacles, the gremlin swarms, and whatever else helps. The trick here is to leave the ‘jacks you attacked in such a state that they’re either the only things or almost the only things that can really get into combat, but they will be awful at the job because of their crippled state. They’re in your opponent’s way, jamming up their lines and numbers, and the mess of cheap solos you’ve added hasn’t helped them. The gremlin Swarm's passive B2B rule adds insult to injury. Since all the beasts have reach, you can generally fit stuff in between them and whoever they attacked, especially after repulsion from the angels. Your goal should be to try and mitigate threat as much as possible WITHOUT using the feat. The chef is there so that if this takes a ton of fury to do, you have a way to manage huge amounts of fury in one go. It’s worth even doing something like putting the Hellion in front of the chef to keep him safe for this turn. NEXT turn is where you’ll rout the enemy list, go all in and cause as much damage as possible, then repulse the targets back with the angelii to disengage them, and use the feat to back all your beasts off, hiding behind terrain/buildings or just out of threat range. On this turn you should already know if you’re going to win. If this is done properly you can have upwards of 8+ average stat (ARM 18-19, etc) warjacks either destroyed or crippled into uselessness while you’ve suffered little retaliation at all. If by some miracle the gremlin swarms have survived this long (really depends on opponent’s list. If they lack magical attacks, the gremlins could be extremely tough to remove), they can contribute huge amounts of problems to your opponent between adding another 5-6 damage to the column of your choice for more system-breaking, or just jamming things with their passive and debuffing ‘jacks simply by being b2b with them. By this point you should have the advantage, and your opponent STILL should have no meaningful retaliation if you’ve played it right. On the following turn, depending on how much fury you can mitigate, you can start sweeping up and clearing the table, or just go for an assassination if it presents itself.
This list is not a theme list for the specific minion and character models involved. In theory you could replace Zuriel with 2 more soldiers, but Zuriel has a lot of concentrated power that makes him a preferable consideration in this case. The minions, while not essential, are very good at this job. The Hellmouths, while also not essential, are just good for the points and contribute useful tools for screwing up the enemy offense and saving your battlegroup as long as possible. You’ll notice that there’s no Seraph in this list. This is because it’s not really built around assassination as well, and needs to cram as many points as possible into stuff that either threatens warjacks, or helps survive against them. Because the list naturally includes high-threat range models anyways, the need for slipstream is lessened, and thagrosh2’s personal contributions here are much rarer. Survival on the feat turn is paramount, and that means thagrosh2 actually stays much further away with this list so that he’s never in personal danger and his beasts have a lot of free reign to move around.
Since he's here chiefly for MD and the feat, he can position for safety first. Oh man, this is so much easier to work with now. [Thagrosh 2] Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Carnivean [18] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Ravagore [16] - Seraph [14] - Typhon [20]Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)]Spell Martyr [1]The Forsaken [0(4)]The Forsaken [0(4)]Ice Witches [7]Throne of Everblight [16]This is my standard definitive Thagrosh2 list now. With the reduction in cost on our beasts from CID and the improvements to Thagrosh2's own performance, this kind of list brings ample killing power packed with a lot of ranged firepower and threat versatility. The throne may seem like an odd choice, but I've always found legion beast-heavy lists to struggle against massed infantry, and a Throne handles massed infantry nicely while also being a fantastic target for Dragon's Blood as the list's frontline 'tank'. This list replaced both the above lists, and accomplishes all the power of the first list and strategic flexibility of the second list.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 5:14:30 GMT
Theme talk
So... Theme lists. We’re all likely to be playing them a lot, so it’s important to talk about how they might impact Thagrosh2. As a disclaimer, I have NOT run Thagrosh2 with any theme lists yet (I only play him in theme now). The above ‘standard’ list is almost literally just my normal thagrosh2 list with some extra free points, so while I haven’t played it specifically, I have no reason to think it would be anything less than my normal list, but better (It basically amounts to a free soldier). Oracles of AnnihilationThis is probably the theme list you’ll play the most. It’s just paying for your fury support for you, and if nothing else will be 2 free forsaken and a free succubus/sorcereress. If you want to dial back the beasts a little bit, you could take a unit as well. One thing to keep in mind is that Thagrosh2 is only a +25 point caster, so with his WB points on a 75 point list, you MUST spend 100% of your points on warbeasts if you want 4 free solos.(can't do that now.) I, however, don’t recommend that simply because you’re so light on solos at that point and thagrosh2 likes solos, especially spell martyrs (and he likes ice witches). Also he’ll struggle to run that many beasts anyways. I find that 3 free solos with Oracles feels like the best compromise of getting a good ‘standard’ thagrosh2 list and getting as much free stuff as you can along the way. The list I posted above as a ‘standard’ list would be a pretty ideal Oracles list , but if you DO want to run 100% beasts, you’ll want to consider a sorceress and some flyers with the idea that they’ll pretty much never be getting fury support to act as your ‘screen’, except they’re MD and feat-friendly. Such a list could look something like this:
Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Typhon [24] - Scythean [18] - Seraph [14] - Nephilim Soldier x2 [18] - Nephilim Bloodseer [8] - Afflictor x2 [18] - Harrier x2 [8] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion x2 [0] The Forsaken x2 [0]
(Thagrosh2 doesn't really have too much trouble with managing beasts, but this really comes down to how your list is structured. Melee always costs more fury than ranged, so a pure-melee alpha list is going to vomit fury all over the table and you'll struggle to mop all that up in a single turn even with a ton of fury support. I like to balance ranged and melee because that reduces the max fury on the table in any given turn, and that's usually manageable by a pair of Forsaken)Ravens of WarRavens of War forces you into some very narrow specializations with Thagrosh2. While I haven't included it in the other lists, this is where Thagrosh2 actually runs an Archangel fairly well. It’s an obvious Dragon’s Blood target, it’s dynamic enough to help out in all of his areas of specialization, it’s fast, destructive, and even more destructive with MD. Basically it’s a big, flying, expensive second-typhon. The reason I usually don’t consider the Archangel is simply because its a lot of points into not a lot of melee attacks, and can make it hard to threaten armor much, despite Thagrosh2 often needing to be your armor-cracking list. In this case, the list dials back the raw killing power a bit, but picks up more harassment and assassination power, both from the specific types of beasts included, as well as your ambushers. For Thagrosh2 specifically, I strongly-strongly recommend going with Blightblades+Raiders as your minimum infantry investment, because 2 ambushing units actually does a lot. Normally Thagrosh2, dynamic as he is, has a very forward-facing threat range, and has difficulty spreading damage around. With the risk of ambushers on both sides of the table, you can funnel your opponent a bit, control where they can go, and ultimately open up your own opportunities to exploit terrain. A ravens list built to this kind of playstyle could look like this:
Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Typhon [24] - Archangel [37] - Seraph [14] Grotesque Raiders (max) [12] Strider Blightblades [10] The Forsaken [0] Spell Martyr x3 [3][Thagrosh 2] Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Archangel [37] - Seraph [14] - Typhon [20] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] The Forsaken [0(4)] Grotesque Raiders (max) [12] Hellmouth [6] Hellmouth [6] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] (Ravens has Hellmouths now, and thagrosh2 likes hellmouths, so this is worth considering, but it's not a huge advantage over just playing out of theme)
This is obviously a very small and specialized list, but if you can use the threat of ambushers to dictate where your opponent goes, you can set up some punishing ranged assassinations. Children of The DragonEasily my least-favorite theme list(That dubious distinction goes to Ravens of War, now), worse even still in this case because it both gears around infantry on a non-infantry caster, and it doesn’t allow seraphs. However, with all that said, it DOES do 2 things that can be worked with well in thagrosh2’s case. The first is, perhaps surprisingly, the +1 starting roll. Because Thagrosh2 can hinge so much on terrain to attack from, being able to control whether you go first or second (and by going second, control who will get what terrain) can actually be a REALLY big deal. Some matchups can hinge on exploitation of the right terrain features, and a +1 to the starting roll can certainly help with that. The second thing is that this list gives Nephilim unyielding, and as I mentioned previously, nephilim soldiers are actually fairly good with Thagrosh2. So if I were to take a crack at CoTD with Thagrosh2, I would seek to try and build something similar to my hit-’n-run list, with a much greater emphasis on nephilim soldiers. As with my Hit-’n-run list, it can potentially get away without the Seraph due to the innate threat range soldiers already have. In this case, full swordsmen with a warlord are included to help with breaking systems(but as mentioned, I haven't spent more than 15 points on the whole module), and a pair of Bolt Throwers help in the area of disengaging models with thunderbolts for the feat turn, or just controlling threat ranges. The raw damage output in this list is actually quite reasonably despite its emphasis on lights, though its ranged assassination options are greatly diminished due to only having 2 ranged attacks in the battlegroup outside of Thagrosh's own.
Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower x2 [22] - Nephilim Soldier x4 [36] - Typhon [24] Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (max) [15] - Blighted Nyss Swordsman Abbot & Champion [0] Incubus (5) [0] Spell Martyr x3 [3] Blighted Nyss Warlord [0][Thagrosh 2] Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Azrael [21] - Nephilim Protector [10] - Nephilim Protector [10] - Typhon [20] - Zuriel [18] - Succubus [0(4)] Beast Mistress [0(4)] - Harrier [3] - Harrier [3] - Harrier [3] - Harrier [3] Craelix, Fang of Everblight [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Ice Witches [7] (COTD changed with the addition of Zuriel and Azrael to the theme list. Thagrosh2 also changed to be a tanky beast. So what do you do when you have a tanky warlock who can sac pawn on lessers and is made harder to hit by using protectors? You take a ton of both. This is a list that gears more as a Thagrosh2 delivery system. Harriers and Protectors safeguard Thagrosh2 so he can play a much more aggressive direct role, alongside 3 solid character heavies who are all reasonably durable on top of being flexible and destructive. Craelix adds his toolbox to further push the strengths of the list, as well as the ubiquitous Ice Witches. This list still suffers the drawback of lacking a Seraph, but with Dragons' Blood, Guard Dog, Annoyance, Sac Pawn, concealment, shield guard, and Excessive Healing, Thagrosh2 is in a pretty good spot to just let the fun come to him while hurling dragon fire and giant javelins along the way. Due to all the fliers, a Sorceress would not be uncalled for here, too.)
**NEW** Primal TerrorsLegion's newest theme list, built around Ogrun (which Thagrosh2 is) and infantry-heavy lists (which Thagrosh2 isn't). Like Oracles of Annihilation, it allows the full roster of beasts, which is definitely something that is good for Thagrosh2, but most of its advantages lean towards infantry, which doesn't play into his strengths too well. There are 3 main points of running Primal Terrors with Thagrosh2 over just running Oracles of Annihilation. 1) Golab: Golab has Lightning Strike, which obviously means Thagrosh2 can use it to hit and run. With his monumental damage output, he's potentially an extremely reliable sprinter, so this alone is absolutely a valid direction to go in, and potentially this rule alone would contribute more to Thagrosh2's aggression and survival than any amount of beasts stacked around him for durability. It helps that Golab is also a solid melee beast in his own right, made all the more deadly by Thagrosh2's toolbox. 2) Hellmouths. Just great in general, and generally hilarious dragon's blood targets. 3) +2" deployment: The passive benefit of the theme list, and always nice to have. Makes hellmouths all the more scary, too. So with this in mind, there's potentially a lot you can do to make a list tailored around buffing and delivering Thagrosh2. Right off the bat you have lightning strike, access to slipstream, access to a blightbringer, and access to carniveans, protectors, harriers, etc. Most of this won't contribute to the theme benefits however, so you're risking losing out on a lot to include it all. Fundementally, you'd want to start with Golab, and 20 points of infantry to get a free hellmouth. I consider this a good basic compromise of getting good theme benefits without being shoehorned into any specific build. From there, you can go with a beast-heavy list like you would run with Oracles, or can go more infantry heavy with Thagrosh2 darting in and out with sprint, or you can go the overbuffed thagrosh2 route with all the various bells and whistles to turn him into some silly DEF 16 ARM 24 PS20 flying catastrophe. While the last of those sounds the most amusing, it's still potentially pouring a boatload of points into one model that can only do his one activation per turn with it, so there's diminishing returns to building a whole list around buffing Thagrosh2. I think a good compromise is to go with a more beast-heavy loadout, while including several 'usual suspects' that can make thagrosh2 more scary. [Thagrosh 2] Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Blightbringer [32] - Carnivean [18] - Golab [17] - Nephilim Protector [10] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Chosen of Everblight (max) [20] Hellmouth [0(6)] This list is a bit lighter on the beast loadout, but the blightbringer becomes a strategic powerhouse here, opening up targets for Golab's hit-and-run, or dropping buffs for thagrosh, the ogrun, and the hellmouths. Hellmouths with dragon's blood plus Dragon's Breath are notoriously-difficult to remove, giving you an anchor to play around, while the Chosen are similarly-difficult to remove with those same buffs while also being reasonably hard-hitting and mobile. Golab and Thagrosh2 working in tandem can potentially have a disproportionate impact on the piece trade vs other heavies if they can consistently make kills and escape with lightning strike. It still plays something like a beast-heavy thagrosh2 list, except you're recycling Golab and Thagrosh2's killing power instead of having more beasts on the table. Risky, but potentially as rewarding as it is powerful. Of course, on top of all this, Thagrosh2 with all his nasty buffs is DEF 16 vs melee, and a whopping ARM 24 after Spiny Growth, Dragon's Blood and Draconic Breath. Or ARM 22 with sprint. Attrition-style Thagrosh2!
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 5:16:01 GMT
In conclusion
I'm sick of writing stuff and this is too long as it is. Go kill stuff in the name of Everblight.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 21, 2017 6:36:54 GMT
Lanz amazing writeup! Im gonna have to assemble my King Dragon. One note, I think u forgot to mention what Thags' feat actually is, or at least reading I expected a sum up of his feat after his spell lsit, especially as u start mentioning his feat in ur next section.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 6:49:37 GMT
Thanks!
Yeah, I figure that people have access to the rules and don't need any of it to be spelled out for them. I figured The Dragon Storm covered it, but I'll add a super-short summary to that.
edit: There, added to that line.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Mar 21, 2017 7:47:49 GMT
An absolutely fantastic write-up. I haven't played Thagrosh2 quite as long as you since I started playing him right around the time the Gargantuans book released but I have to say from my own experience I agree with literally every single point that you've made here. Really good work dude, you're almost making me want to start playing Thags2 again (this edition I've been all-in on Abby2 and Fyanna2 instead).
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Post by althor on Mar 21, 2017 10:21:29 GMT
thanks a lot, fantastic article
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Post by DanX on Mar 21, 2017 10:50:28 GMT
Great write up. I like the attention to lists in each theme. Nearly inspired.
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Post by methios on Mar 21, 2017 16:24:05 GMT
Would u ever consider a protector in his list for some shieldguard action and +2 def vs mellee caster kill attempts?
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Post by neutralyze on Mar 21, 2017 16:41:49 GMT
If you charge a model at max reach and scourge it, the AOE deviates 1" and will not hit thagrosh. It's good for trying to kill a caster. Charge, scourge, hit with charge and three pow 18
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 17:40:03 GMT
Would u ever consider a protector in his list for some shieldguard action and +2 def vs mellee caster kill attempts? I don't. For all that it does, I still find the protector too expensive for a dedicated defensive role. If you charge a model at max reach and scourge it, the AOE deviates 1" and will not hit thagrosh. It's good for trying to kill a caster. Charge, scourge, he withcharge and three pow 18 Oh hey, you're right. I killed myself over that once and said to myself "I'm never doing that again". Must have mis-measured or something.
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Post by neutralyze on Mar 21, 2017 17:46:37 GMT
Thags problem right now is that the game is incredibly ranged dependent right now. Most lists out threat what he brings to the table and it's hard to hide thagrosh. It's why Abby2 is taken more than him right now. She provides the speed and mobility to get in first and do enough damage. Thags offers a way out with the feat, similar to vayl1
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Post by Khalazza on Mar 21, 2017 19:51:40 GMT
Great write up Lanz, i might have to give him a try again.
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