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Post by methios on Mar 19, 2017 16:42:04 GMT
I picked up legion not to long ago. I like dragons, what can i say  . However, im not doing so well with them. Mostly because i feel like i dont do enough dmg. My dice are terrible, but hey thats something i have to live with. (missing 7x a 5 to hit with a carnivean for example). Typhon, is friggin 24 points, and hes only pow 17? Im a glass cannon faction and my most expensive character warbeast has pow 17... The carni is pow 18 but with mat 6 and a 1 inch mellee range i hardy ever gets 19 points of work out of it. I know we have acces to some mellee buffs but its happening way to often then i cannon remove a 10 point maraunder with a 19 point carnivean. Specialy when i play lyl3 cause of the guns i see a couple of bombers at arm 20 who has 2 pow 16 shots and is pow 18 in melee with no sweat and something just feels odd. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Mar 19, 2017 17:07:38 GMT
Just my own observations, but Legion beasts aren't so much weak as they are overcosted. And we also tend to kill by alpha and volume of attacks over raw strength. Typhon for example kills from his 3 initials plus 4 bought attacks.
I recommend playing stuff that boosts your accuracy to hit more of your attacks and stuff to deliver it. Try a Seraph, Manifest Destiny, or Marked for Death for accuracy and a Hellmouth, slipstream, or Escort for movement.
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Post by neutralyze on Mar 19, 2017 20:30:05 GMT
Our beasts are costed high for their ranged presence, pathfinder, eyeless sight, and flight. We have a great combined approach, moreso than other hordes factions.
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Post by rhonlore on Mar 19, 2017 20:52:07 GMT
Legion really benefits from a table with a high density of terrain. We love to see walls and houses and forest, though not as much as we used to.
Slap the maximum number of terrain pieces on those tables!!
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288 
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Post by Whiskie on Mar 19, 2017 22:25:44 GMT
We're relatively pillowfisted because we have a ton of strengths in other areas. We're generally fast, extremely mobile due to Pathfinder and Flight being so common and have access to more guns than the other Hordes Factions. The way we can equal other Factions in terms of hitting power is through use of any of our wide range of buffs. Incite, Manifest Destiny, Parasite, Fury, Kiss of Lylyss - all of it cranks our heavies up to really scary levels. The other important thing to remember is that the Naga Nightlurker is the main way that we deal with DEF and ARM buffs. Its animus is absolutely key to dealing with stuff like Stormwalls with Arcane Shield. It's a rare list that doesn't get better with the addition of a Naga so be sure to pick one up if you haven't already.
If you're playing a lot of Lylyth3 specifically she's one of the few Warlocks in our Faction that doesn't have a built-in damage buff. Making stuff Stationary helps accuracy a ton but you can still struggle to put down harder targets without any way of increasing the effective POW of your attacks. Be sure to pair a damage buff Warlock with her for Steamrollers. Abby2 is a really popular one, as is Fyanna2. Both of those Warlocks fix our damage output problems with ease.
EDIT: As for the Carnivean vs Marauder thing, I'm not alone in the opinion that there's something a bit "off" in the balance of the more budget heavies in some of the Warmachine Factions. The Marauder, Crusader and Nomad are particularly egregious examples of this. However since we can't do anything about that problem the way to deal with those things is to use tools like Hellmouths to even the odds.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Mar 20, 2017 2:15:53 GMT
Legion doesn't win fair fights, we are the weakest hitting and most fragile Hordes faction and the big melee scrum in the centre where you just smash your army into theirs is not what Legion wants, it's what factions like Trolls, Skorne and Khador want. If you want to win with Legion you need to pick your fights carefully, scalpel out key models of your opponent's force, and utilise positioning and various movement shenanigans to limit your opponent's ability to retaliate. We can also threaten assassination extremely well and that is, if you ask me, our most potent tool to win games.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 20, 2017 15:04:41 GMT
not to be negative but, welcome to the faction. Legion is full of elite point costs for average to below average stats and no great support.It's the handicap we have to play with. Our advantage is mobility and "shoot first ask questions later". On paper our beasts and casters will never add up even to other "worst in the game" factions. But even as bleak as that seems we have tools to work with and they indeed do work.
I hate to agree with it but "assassination with flags" is our game style at the moment. SR 2017 may fudge that but the point will likely still stand. So pressure the caster out of scenario or out of positioning. Take every viable shot at their caster that you can. Even if it doesn't put out good damage it will pressure them. Make the opponent make bad decisions, and don't give them good choices. Legion is absolutely not designed as a denial faction but it's a way of play I've found to work well. Always work for board control. Worry about "optimal piece trading" after the fact.
When Zuriel can walk up to Ruin, under manifest destiny, fail to break armor 3 times, and still carve out a cortex and survive the following turn. That is the prime example of our faction. We fall short, but we're going to make the game as difficult as possible for you. And if you mess up. If you get greedy or arrogant, we capitalize and win.
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Post by neutralyze on Mar 20, 2017 16:55:22 GMT
not to be negative but, welcome to the faction. Legion is full of elite point costs for average to below average stats and no great support.It's the handicap we have to play with. Our advantage is mobility and "shoot first ask questions later". On paper our beasts and casters will never add up even to other "worst in the game" factions. But even as bleak as that seems we have tools to work with and they indeed do work. I hate to agree with it but "assassination with flags" is our game style at the moment. SR 2017 may fudge that but the point will likely still stand. So pressure the caster out of scenario or out of positioning. Take every viable shot at their caster that you can. Even if it doesn't put out good damage it will pressure them. Make the opponent make bad decisions, and don't give them good choices. Legion is absolutely not designed as a denial faction but it's a way of play I've found to work well. Always work for board control. Worry about "optimal piece trading" after the fact. When Zuriel can walk up to Ruin, under manifest destiny, fail to break armor 3 times, and still carve out a cortex and survive the following turn. That is the prime example of our faction. We fall short, but we're going to make the game as difficult as possible for you. And if you mess up. If you get greedy or arrogant, we capitalize and win. I have to disagree with your statement. We have amazing warlocks that pilot the average to below average stats. Outside of that, we do have a few beasts that are great stats but at a higher price cost. Example of amazing warlocks Abby2 Vayl2 Fyanna2 Twins Lylyth3 Are all great warlocks that offer a lot to our armies and the table. I don't understand how you can say our warlocks are worse off than every other faction at their worst. Thags is an example of a warlock who is seeing a resurgence and brings great durability, power and attrition to the table. As for manifest destiny on ruin, you cannot take that into account as dice are part of the game. Sometimes you'll roll hot and sometimes user average. Zuriel should deal 5 damage on average per attack to ruin with MD. For piece trading we have the neraph,which for 12 points is great at trading up. With the oracle theme here this week, you better bet you'll see a ton of neraphs coming into lists soon. Outside of that, we do need to carefully pick how we trade with the opposing army. We soften at range and finish in melee. |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 20, 2017 17:09:41 GMT
I have to disagree with your statement. We have amazing warlocks that pilot the average to below average stats. Outside of that, we do have a few beasts that are great stats but at a higher price cost. Example of amazing warlocks Abby2 Vayl2 Fyanna2 Twins Lylyth3 Are all great warlocks that offer a lot to our armies and the table. I don't understand how you can say our warlocks are worse off than every other faction at their worst. Thags is an example of a warlock who is seeing a resurgence and brings great durability, power and attrition to the table. As for manifest destiny on ruin, you cannot take that into account as dice are part of the game. Sometimes you'll roll hot and sometimes user average. Zuriel should deal 5 damage on average per attack to ruin with MD. For piece trading we have the neraph,which for 12 points is great at trading up. With the oracle theme here this week, you better bet you'll see a ton of neraphs coming into lists soon. Outside of that, we do need to carefully pick how we trade with the opposing army. We soften at range and finish in melee. I understand we do have good casters. But when you look at specific translations we fall short. But that's just on paper stats Rhyas will never be Butcher. Crit decap is awesome on paper but as you said, dice is part of the game. Manifest destiny is a good spell, but it will never be as consistent or as cheap as Synergy. Lylth 1, 2, or 3 will never be Sloan. On "paper" our casters are not as good at their roles as other specialist casters. That's all I really meant. I still stand by Kryssa being my favorite caster and I see her as the strongest Legion has. Lotsa people don't agree with me on that. "Worst in the game" was in quotes because I still don't believe half the mess people call "worst" is actually that bad. Again; Kryssa. So I apologize for my exaggeration. Thagrosh 1 is amazing. I enjoy him quite a lot. I have no argument there. I'm not saying the Zuriel example is the end all be all case for every game. I was actually trying to promote the fact that even when things go terribly we are still doing well. I also understand about the Neraph. Again, "on paper" it's no Juggernaut. But yes it does trade up in some nice cases. |
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Post by methios on Mar 20, 2017 17:24:08 GMT
Ì like our casters, but the beasts just seem meh.
Fyanna 2 is what got me into the faction, i looked to her stats on paper and thought, wauw, this is everything i want in a caster. Then i played her a couple of times and it feels just "ok".
feat:
So i took flyers, cause they cant be knocked down, and seemed to get the most leverage of the feat. But even at def 17 beasts die to a stiff breeze. Because they have such gimp armor and hp even a mat 6 gladiator will punch it down real easy with just boosting to hit.
Gallows:
Nice, but less so on a fury 6 warlock. You blow half your stack to either miss or role 1inch on the pull.
The iron flesh:
Just works on troops. I gues i could take some swordsmen that would bennifit from the no blast dmg, but the 2 arm gos to waste.
Admonition: Handy
Fury: What its all about. But you can get max 2 beasts with fury into something. With the added problem that the beast you upkept fury on needs to be able to get in. (opponets usualy make sure that doesnt happen) so i swap it to a beast that can get some work done. Thats 1 beast on pow 18 with 3 fury and a free charge. Thats just alot of hoops for a pow 18 dude imo.
Also, against shooting i feel like i am cornerd into lylith 3. As other casters just offer concealment. And that just not cutting it. But lyl3 doest crack armor....at all. Most shooty jacks sport atealst arm 18, and troll bombers go to 20.
Lastly, in the our beasts get more millage due to range pressence, I look at a canoneer, which is cheaper, has more threatrange. and can easly turn into a beatstik. Just like the bomber. with such easy acces to rage and the 2+ arm aura. The ravagore is just has verry crappy stats.. and it doesnt feel like "we can buff or make it work better" then any of the other factions can with their stuff.
Im thinking about trying thargosh2. But i also think about just dropping legion all together at this point. (i lost 8 games in a row now :s), not saying legoin is bad. But mebbe not my thing? :s
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 5:26:03 GMT
With Typhon you have to look at the whole picture. As a FURY 5 with 3 initial attacks, Typhon gets as much as double the attacks that some other heavies get. On PS17 alone, that's not amazing, but if you give him ANY kind of damage buff, he'll apply it way more. This is generally true of most of our beasts, who routinely have 3 initial attacks before spending any fury. They take any kind of buffing and push it to extreme numbers, and a LOT of our warlocks have such buffs.
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Post by maximumhippo on Mar 21, 2017 9:15:16 GMT
|Lylth 1, 2, or 3 will never be Sloan.
Lyly2 was Sloan before Sloan was Sloan.
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