faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
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Post by faelin on Mar 7, 2017 10:19:24 GMT
and Guild Ball recently hired DC to work for them(The guy who made Convergence of Cyriss). ...and they're releasing a new tabletop game this year, more of a skirmish level game with a world that involves fantasy elements... (Guild Ball is good fun too) Link with details?
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faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
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Post by faelin on Mar 7, 2017 10:20:08 GMT
Double post
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Post by dragash on Mar 7, 2017 10:32:20 GMT
I think Grimtuff summed up the new forums pretty well:
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Mar 7, 2017 10:55:29 GMT
Well, they should have given us a few weeks to sort it out before closing the forums. It's fine to separate the passionate discussion topics from the official forums, and there are numerous good reasons for that (for us and for them), but the way they handled it was just spiteful and destructive. "Passionate discussion" is a good way of describing what the old general discussion tended to be about, and what PP wanted to get rid of. I get that they were tired of fans asking critical questions that then got other fans to go "yeah, what's up with that?", which meant that they had to get Matt Wilson in to calm everyone down. It's clearly the same principle as with the GW forums - companies don't want to provide platforms for their users to use "against" them. We may not feel that we are against them when we ask difficult questions or provide honest but brutal feedback, but I get that it's not something they want. I am a big fan of passionate discussion though. So let's see if we can get it here. Just without any PP involvement anymore, ever.
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Post by zorrobard47 on Mar 7, 2017 11:09:45 GMT
I guess I'm of the opinion that 'what's done is done.' I'm hoping that most will move to these forums and we can all have fun chatting here about the game.
Yes I agree that PP made a big mistake by getting rid of the forums. They lost their ability to connect with the players to see where they were with the game, and yes, it will cost them the most.
In the end, the best form of communication will be sales. Personally I'm not sweating it. If it's a good model with good rules, I'll get it. If not, I won't. It's like "my wallet thanks you PP."
That being said (and this isn't excusing them)... Perhaps the forums were just becoming too toxic for them and so it's time to back off, let's focus on the good aspects of the game, and what it is now. There's still tons to enjoy.
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Post by malnorma on Mar 7, 2017 11:41:50 GMT
Details are light at the moment, they only gave a tiny bit of info about the setting in the Steamcon keynote.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 7, 2017 12:07:20 GMT
A lot of the problem with the negativity on the PP forums was that the staff never engaged in a real way and seemed particularly thin skinned about everything. Like if they just said "The errata in <month> will do <thing> to Storm Lances" then there would be a lot more moaning. Sure, people wouldn't be buying up two units of Storm Lances anymore but the community in general would be happier and a happy community is a community that spends money on other things in the range.
They seemed VERY hesitant to take on suggestions to fix models that player had suggested and when they couldn't get around it without using a player suggestion they got super defensive.
There's a dude on /tg/ who constantly posts claiming that PP management has no idea what they're doing, they hate new ideas and anyone who suggests anything against their vision is bullied into silence and I'm beginning to believe it. A lot of their decisions seem driven to just get people to shut up about their problems rather than actually trying to fix them.
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Post by wayniac on Mar 7, 2017 12:34:20 GMT
Here's my viewpoint: I lived through GW doing this. Back in the day, GW made a lot of boneheaded mistakes:
* Gutted online retailers and curbed their ability to sell at a discount, and finally to advertise their products at all (nowadays if you want GW products, they have to send you a spreadsheet because GW claimed using the images of their product on a webstore violated their IP)
* Closed down their forums because they didn't want to hear negative feedback for what they were doing.
* Did not care at all about what they were doing to the game, instead going along their merry way and not caring along as stupid rubes bought their product.
PP came around in the era after that, largely because they positioned themselves as the "Anti-GW". They cared about the game. They, at the time, used only metal (anyone remember their "Heavy Metal" tagline?) as opposed to "cheap plastic" and fully supported local game stores at a time when GW was putting increasingly draconian rules on anyone selling their product besides their own stores.
In the past two years roughly, something happened at PP. I'm not sure what, but look at some of the decisions in that time:
* The "Free Rider Policy" which basically curbed online discounters
* Mk3 seemed rushed and for a long while PP had this smug arrogance about them, which led to the rise of the #3yearsoftesting and #designspace hashtags
* Killing the major parts of their forum (i.e. faction forums and general discussion) to curb negative viewpoints and so they didn't have to listen to negative feedback or just ranting in general, trying to create a literal "safe space" where they could only hear what they wanted.
The similarities are VERY eerie. Now, let me state I have faith in PP. I think they have made some boneheaded decisions but unlike GW, who clearly didn't care one lick about anything other than fleecing people of their money, PP still seems to care about the game and, even if we think it's misguided, they seem to be doing this out of what they feel are good intentions, not bad ones like GW. The CID is indicative of the fact they still want to see the game succeed.
So I say, while we are all bitter about the loss of the forums, let's not forget that PP is still trying to do the right thing for the game, even if we don't agree. I'm not saying we can't be mad over it, but I get the impression that PP is still going to continue to make Warmachine & Hordes a solid tabletop game for us to enjoy.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 7, 2017 12:51:39 GMT
I'm pretty sure this post would have some sort of offcial guy replying by now. The rply would satisfy some and inflame others but it would be replied to and it would be seen. Now it's lost on this lovely forum to fester.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 7, 2017 13:26:06 GMT
the "official reply" today would be to delete the post.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 7, 2017 13:37:39 GMT
All I can advise is that if their new direction is really troubling, vote with your wallet. That's pretty much the only feedback we have now. I was all in for Grymkin as my 8th faction in the game, but I'm really not wanting to support them at the moment with my money until I can get a better picture of the direction they are headed.
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Post by zorrobard47 on Mar 7, 2017 14:36:44 GMT
Right now, I'm going to buy only what I like right now. If PP improves things fine. In the meantime I've got lots to paint and enjoy. Voting with our wallets is really the only power we have. If something isn't great, people don't buy and PP loses sales. It's that simple.
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Post by Tekanan on Mar 7, 2017 14:48:00 GMT
Here's my viewpoint: I lived through GW doing this. Back in the day, GW made a lot of boneheaded mistakes: * Gutted online retailers and curbed their ability to sell at a discount, and finally to advertise their products at all (nowadays if you want GW products, they have to send you a spreadsheet because GW claimed using the images of their product on a webstore violated their IP) * Closed down their forums because they didn't want to hear negative feedback for what they were doing. * Did not care at all about what they were doing to the game, instead going along their merry way and not caring along as stupid rubes bought their product. PP came around in the era after that, largely because they positioned themselves as the "Anti-GW". They cared about the game. They, at the time, used only metal (anyone remember their "Heavy Metal" tagline?) as opposed to "cheap plastic" and fully supported local game stores at a time when GW was putting increasingly draconian rules on anyone selling their product besides their own stores. In the past two years roughly, something happened at PP. I'm not sure what, but look at some of the decisions in that time: * The "Free Rider Policy" which basically curbed online discounters * Mk3 seemed rushed and for a long while PP had this smug arrogance about them, which led to the rise of the #3yearsoftesting and #designspace hashtags * Killing the major parts of their forum (i.e. faction forums and general discussion) to curb negative viewpoints and so they didn't have to listen to negative feedback or just ranting in general, trying to create a literal "safe space" where they could only hear what they wanted. The similarities are VERY eerie. Now, let me state I have faith in PP. I think they have made some boneheaded decisions but unlike GW, who clearly didn't care one lick about anything other than fleecing people of their money, PP still seems to care about the game and, even if we think it's misguided, they seem to be doing this out of what they feel are good intentions, not bad ones like GW. The CID is indicative of the fact they still want to see the game succeed. So I say, while we are all bitter about the loss of the forums, let's not forget that PP is still trying to do the right thing for the game, even if we don't agree. I'm not saying we can't be mad over it, but I get the impression that PP is still going to continue to make Warmachine & Hordes a solid tabletop game for us to enjoy. I attribute this to a typical life cycle of a popular wargame. Next thing we know, PP will push the idea that it's a miniatures company first. Then, the fluff and setting gets resetted. Finally, nostalgic elements will be played to attract back the vets. In other words, we get an Orgoth faction. All is forgiven because it's Orgoth! All aboard the Orgoth faction hype train!!
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 7, 2017 15:08:23 GMT
" I hope some guys there will start get their shit together like they're doing at GW, since GW looks now objectively better than PP and this is a hell of statement I though I would never make."
sigh....same.
It's hard for me not to make the connection between the behavior I see at PP and some moves in general towards free speech i see in other platforms such as facebook, youtube, and reddit. The underlying reasoning seems entirely politically motivated, you know that thing no one is allowed to talk about but motivates everything you do. If I could be forgiven a moment of tinfoil-hatness i would say PP has been invaded by a SJW who was embarrassed by the community and is 'correcting' the problem. Pure conjecture on my part though.
It's funny because a few days prior I posted in the latest casuals vs competitive thread "Communities are destroyed when one side tries to police the other without solutions" and well here we are.
I'm going to repost what I posted in the main forums as what I think is going on and then I'm moving on. I'm at this point convinced im 100% right:
"Here's what I think is going on: With the change form MkII to MkIII came a slight change in focus and direction. MkII was for the most part a success but with all good companies they want to grow and as such the edict was passed down that for the next X number of years the focus was going on to be new players and growing the "community" as well as consequentially increase profits. This is a good thing. There was significant efforts to revamp the staring experience and a plan to, overtime, encourage the growth of the army. New starter boxes that were a steal in value and a fool proof method of educating a new customer as a pathway to further purchases. It's no accident that the new character warbeasts are all tailored to the BB casters there's a plan here that is being followed. From a purely business standpoint all well and good.
Now I don't know if it was some consultant hired, or the revelation of one f the 'big hats' in PP but with this new 'offensive' you want to make sure all your departments are going in the same direction and as such the existing community needed to be looked at. Based on what I've seen and experienced it's hard to resist the conclusion that someone thought that the community needed to be 'sanitized'. You wouldn't want your new player base to come onto your blooming social media and community outreach platforms to feel unwelcome (and then not buy anything). Problem. Page 5 exists and with it the spirit of the game(and thus the community). And it was a Bold and Proud spirit. It gave no quarter and expected none. It was gloriously aggressive in tone and execution. It was a problem that needed to go away. And away it went. Someone was embarrassed at PP at what that spirit wrought, especially in lieu of this new directive. And so the incremental attempt at adjusting the spirit of the game, and therefore the community, and therefore the communities behavior, began. The players that had gotten PP on it's feat and sustained it had outlived there usefulness and would be sacrificed, a casualty of war, to be replaced by fresh new recruits. The ends justify the means after all.
And you tried for a while to entertain the possibility of trying to hold on to both, but in your failed attempt to police behavior to re-engineer the spirit of your community you ended up exhausting yourself. Eliminating the problem was the only "solution" you could have come to, and this is the next step. A word of advice to whom it may concern: "What you win people with is what you win people to". It was never going to work, enforcing behavior always ends in more division then it attempts to prevent. At best you'll gain a resentful compliance. At worst, a resentful mutiny."
The only reason I have this is because I started saving my posts becuase of the mods.
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Post by ishruul on Mar 7, 2017 16:53:29 GMT
Yup, they went downhill with the PR right about the time they dreamed up MKIII. Seem like they only want people to follow blindly while saying "Wait another 6 month, we got a fix coming up!" and then screw everyone by nuking the community that follow/help/invest.
Retarded choice.
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