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Post by zorrobard47 on Mar 16, 2017 17:59:49 GMT
It's no secret that Troll Light Warbeasts have their, how shall we say it, "issues". This thread is not a discussion on their problems or how they should be changed. I'm off the line of thinking ,"hey we've got em, we don't know or when they get an Eratta , How do we get the most of them actually playing them on the table top?"
So what are your thoughts on how to Polish these rocks?
Here's a few thoughts...
Night Troll: Yes, I'm starting with this little guy. Cool model, poor rules. Here's a few thoughts... First, it's dirt cheap at 7 points. Most Troll Light Warbeasts tend to be on the expensive side. It's also one of the few Troll warbeasts with 3 base attacks, and it has an ok MAT of 6. Finally it has stealth, eyeless sight, man eater and crit paralysis. I was thinking that it could be used as a piece trader with a potential 2 part 18 attacks and one pwer 17, enough to put the hurt on most targets.
Pyre Troll: I'm not sure how to Polish this one... It's best against Menoth and Legion as its animus gives the caster immunity to fire. It's also decent at setting things on fire. Mauler + Grissel 1, Ragnor or Horgle (not junior) seems like decent bets. It's low MAT is a bit of a problem.
Slag Troll: Currently, I think this may be the closest thing Trolls have for a piece trading warbeast into Warmachine factions. It's only 10 points, and is one of the few Troll Lights that have a gun and MAT 6. What's impressive is that it's got Assault for its gun, and 2 pwr 13 fists, all of which have Erosion, making it a weapon master against Constructs. With Rage alone, this beast can potentially one round a Khador heavy.
Storm Troll: I'm a bit stumped on this one. The best that I can see this beast as is a zone control/ emergency anti infantry light. The Repulser Field field keeps it from being repeating hit... Any other thoughts on how to Polish this one?
Anyway, those are a few thoughts for now.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Mar 16, 2017 18:08:19 GMT
My main problem with the Slag Troll is that unlike last edition when I found it pretty easy to split my lists by Warmachine Drop vs Hordes Drop (infantry attrition vs heavy trading in most cases), there isn't much of an easy way to list build along those lines meaning that in a lot of cases the Slag Troll will be dead weight. If the meta between the two systems gets set enough you can put it in a reliable "Warmachine Only" drop, the Slag could see play as is.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 16, 2017 18:33:01 GMT
Any TB light, with the addition of SSE +1 STR and Rage (24pts of auto-include?) can generate some decent anti-ARM tech against a single or a two B2B enemy targets. Slag, buffed, can be amazing against WM/constructs single model(s).
The Pyre I can justify, to new TB players, as a good option with FEs or Horgle2.
The Night/Storm? Maybe with Ragnor for Pulverizer also? +2, +1, +3 = POW 18(?) for cheapest/cheap-ish sacrificial proactive attacker/LURE.
At least the Night Troll has an improved MAT. MAT 5 is a real bummer for TB's in particular. How many +1 or +2 MAT fixers for beasts do we have on Warlocks? (No beast Caller yet...)
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Post by Trollock on Mar 16, 2017 18:33:24 GMT
Haha. You forgot the winter troll (and bouncer, axer and impaler). EDIT: lol, and i forgot the Swamp troll I have used every single light at least once, and while they are rarely super good, there has been at least one instance where they fit in a list and i felt like they were the right choice. Night Troll
I like him with Grissel 1. I do not love grissel 1, but she allows the night troll to kill a heavy with a free charge, and extra attack and +2 MAT and +6 STR. You can put serious hurt on some things even without calamity. Having cheap lights can allow her to bring many pieces and then piece trade the cheap lights early on, and keep things like a Mauler for late game. I wish it were better, but it has a place with her at least. Pyre TrollIt can light up Fire Eaters. Once the Northkin theme is here, i am confident we will see him regularly. He is actually pretty useful in many match ups, since both Sentinels and Pikemen are played frequently and they want to huddle up, allowing the Pyre to light them up. Fire is not as effective against Pikemen as it used to be, but it is still dangerous to them. He is also interesting with Doomy 3, since if he can cast his animus for free, he could do a fair bit of work on a heavy with no external help. And with Horgle 2 you see him from time to tome for putting fire effects where you want him. Again, i wish he was 8 points, but that would be enough to make him a solid choice i think. Slag Troll
Three slags cost the same as a Mauler + EBDT. In ADR it is super useful to have them available to switch in. I also like him with Grissel 1, because with Rage, Stone Strength, Boundless Charge and an extra attack, he actually threatens warBEASTS. WarJACKS always melt to him, but only half the game has those, and that is what is keeping him back. If his animus had any type of universal utility i think he would be played. I hesitate to put him in lists because of the specialization against warjacks, but in a pairing you can probably afford to bring him. A boostable gun is something that fits in any list, even if it is short ranged. There can be a single model that blocks a lane or something. I think that if we give him more table time, we will hate him less... Storm TrollHas theoretical uses against Cygnar, to make your caster not die against Nemo. I find the problem there to be that Cygnar is "always" immune to his gun, so he does literally nothing. I think that he works with Grissel 1 (see a theme here?) just because all the lights sort of do, and his gun is pretty OK. I started putting him in lists, to screw with Cygnar, but stopped because his gun does not work there. A bouncer feels more universally applicable against shooting lists. Winter TrollYep, we forget about him all the time. He was possibly going to be taken in lists to screw with Una 2, but when she got nerfed he fled back in to his cave. He has a place with Gunnbjorn though. A fully boosted spray from Kill Shot is a great thing, and if you crit on something like an Angelius, it just goes away. I doubt i want him with any other caster, but Ragnor and Doomy 3 can probably use him. He is needlessly annoying to kill with their feats up, and if you place him near the stuff they DO want to kill with his animus up, it can be very beneficial. ImpalerHe sees a lot of play because Battle Box games and Journeyman League force you to take him. He is obviously too expensive, but his main problem is that the Bomber just outshines him. I played him in a Doomy 3 list because the points worked out well, and it gave me a boostable gun in a list that lacked shooting. He is Fury hungry, but his gun is totally OK. With Calandra and Dhunia Knot, he can get three chances to get that crit slam, and that is something ppl ALWAYS forget about, especially if Calandra places something in front of their caster with Befuddle and you slam it in to them. Oh, and DEF 14 against charges under star crossed means infantry does NOT want to deal with this guy. Corner case, i know, and i bring Bombers instead, but he is not super bad. It is just that the Bomber is super good. Oh, and if you try and play an infantry list, and want something for Charge of the Trolls, he is totally fine for that. Axer and BouncerThough they are not in every list, they are in a good place. They are options you may take. Not mandatory, and not something you have to bend over backwards to fit in a list. Well balanced models imo.
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Post by karang029 on Mar 17, 2017 13:44:24 GMT
Also Night Trolls have been seeing some use in Doomy2 lists to good effect actually.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 17, 2017 14:34:35 GMT
Also Night Trolls have been seeing some use in Doomy2 lists to good effect actually. What is the tech you are going for there? Crit fishing?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Mar 17, 2017 15:28:26 GMT
I've posting this on my blog on Monday and it's seem applicable so you can have it early, here.
Charge of the Light Brigade
The recent emergence of PoD as the default way to play Trolls leads us to a bit of a problem. These beast heavy lists clear infantry well enough with the addition of a bomber, but they often lack a front line. They miss Fire Eaters, Mk2 Burrowers of even a Max unit of Fennblades to slow the enemy down. They also lack non blast infantry clear. Don’t get me wrong, I adore the bomber and play one in almost every list, but I know that blast immune mass infantry is a thing. Whether it’s Irusk2, Satyxis Raiders or a Ret gun-line clumped around a pair of Artificers, you need an answer, dear Troll player.
Troll where often described as having the best light beasts in the MK2 game. When we moved to Mk3, the elemental trolls were almost immediately dismissed with the exception of the pyre troll, who many troll players took begrudgingly with 2 units of fire eater. Before we begin, I want to make clear that I’d rather have a unit of Bushwackers or 2 units of fire eaters than the options we’re going to discuss, but the benefits of the PoD theme are too great so we need to work with what we have.
Swampy
The Swamp troll is the cheapest boostable gun in Trolls. A steal at 8 points he is a flexible piece that might surprise you in the number of ways he can be useful on any given turn. Firstly there is that gun, rat 6 is excellent. It also has critical consume and drag. Obviously he offers potential solo removal which is something that a beast heavy army can often struggle with, but in certain situations he can pull a unit leader out of formation and at POW 10 there is a good chance they survive. Good key solo choices involve Alexia or Ragman require models to be relatively nearby if they want to stay alive a clever player will keep Alexia out of 13inches but a Ragman so far back is basically a useless Ragman so that’s a win/win situation. What the Alexia player might not know or remember, however is that the swamp troll can charge a model 8.5 inches away and still use its gun due to dual attack. Suddenly we have a threat of potentially 16.5 inches or 18.5 inches with rush. Don’t just think this applies to small bases. Pulling a Krea or Artificer in so you can kill it with the swamp or another model’s melee attacks might open up the rest of the attacks in a shooting list.
The swamp troll also works as a great jam piece. Send it against living infantry and use that animus. Def 14, arm 18 with 22 boxes can be surprisingly difficult for most infantry to deal with. The main issue is that if he charges and uses his animus that’s all 3 fury so no boosted gun or melee attacks. That said we have a variety of casters that help this: A free animus from Doomy3 under mini feat + Boosted attacks under regular feat plus he isn’t dying on their turn unless they have grievous wounds. Doomy2 gives him a free charge under feat and he could be a fun first turn target for wild aggression. Doomy1 could give him fortune. A caster like Calandra could make him utterly ridiculous. Def 16 against living models with dodge and star crossed. Against Horde heavy spam I still found a great use for humble swamp troll. Use him as a speed bump. Most warbeasts are Mat 6 and as already mentioned a Def 14, Arm 18 22 box light isn’t trivially removed. Whatever they send in will have to be pretty substantial and that’s going to die the next turn.
More often that not when you send in a swamp troll vs living troops it will still be around the next turn and thanks to snacking if it lasts a turn it might still be there 3 of 4 turns later and this is a really good thing, because the final thing that the swamp troll brings is assassination threat. Usually not on his own, it can be difficult to see all the pull angles, especially when you consider he can charge a model 10.5 inches away and then pull a model in 8 inches or 12 with Grim2 or Gunnbjorn. He also has native pathfinder so walking into a forest and pulling a model behind it into base to base is absolutely an option. Once there you can send in a heavy or spray them down with Grissel2, to give two examples of assassinations I’ve had work in the last few months.
Storm Troll
Stormzy (As he is known in North London) has become a bit of a recent favourite light troll to act as a speed bump or infantry jam. The caveat before we start is that there is a very decent chance you’ll come up against an entirely lightning immune Cygnar force at some point and then his value is almost zero. He could make you immune to lightning damage, but if we’re honest that’s most going to hit you in the form of electro leaps and pow 10’s rarely trouble troll casters as even Calandra is armour 16 under stone. The Hurricane is coming however and Pow 16 boostable guns could cause a problem, which the animus could help against.
So what does the Storm troll bring to your PoD list. Firstly we have the gun, Range 10 and leaps 3 times. It provides boostable spot removal and not just that, but it can get rid of stealthed solos by leaping your shot off a nearby model. Remember as well that the leaps aren’t considered attacks and so can get around a variety of defensive tech. There are way too many ways to abuse electro leaps and lightning generator, can I suggest talking to your local Cygnar player if you’re looking for inspiration. As a further note, Whelps make great targets to leap off, yes they die, but it’s a small price to pay to kill a key solo.
The Storm troll can also just be sent into a group of infantry to jam yet again. Stick the animus on him and charge or walk him in. If you rolled maximum electro leaps on both fists he could kill 8 models in a turn. It’s not likely and you do need to factor in his low mat or 5, but it’s certainly an option against low arm troops. As a speedbump the perfect situation is to charge a heavy, boost to hit both initials fishing for a critical and disrupting it while you approach. The opponent is then essentially playing a model down for a turn. If that good situation doesn’t occur he can just walk 5 into charge range and shoot something. Electro leap often means you’re picking off key support staff with the gun so it’s value. When they charge the storm troll, your opponent has to deal with being pushed back after every hit. If you place it the correct distance away most heavies will only get 1 hit on it before being pushed out of melee range, the key here is to know your opponents threat range and be just inside it so they don’t end up base to base with you. Placing yourself behind a convenient wall can also help you achieve this.
Conclusion:
Both beasts have definite strengths and weaknesses, yes they’d be a lot better at MAT6 and neither of them is likely to kill a heavy even with Rage, but they are also both cheap and they are both incredibly flexible. It’s unlikely they will ever be in a matchup where they have nothing to offer. They definitely won’t always kill 8 or 9 points worth of models, but their flexibility will hopefully allow the rest of your force to trade up in heavy trades, hold zones, jam units allowing your heavies to start the piece trade, kill key solos or set up an assassination.
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Post by albertairish on Mar 17, 2017 16:15:44 GMT
Also Night Trolls have been seeing some use in Doomy2 lists to good effect actually. That's really only because they fit neatly into the amount of points you have left after you include the useful stuff. Trollbloods Army - 68 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Doomshaper 2) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Rage of Dhunia [+27] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [15] - Mulg the Ancient [19] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0] - Troll Bouncer [9] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Troll Whelps [0] Troll Whelps [0] Leaves you with 7 points. Might as well take a Night Troll.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 17, 2017 16:16:08 GMT
Great read! I totally forgot about the Swamp troll. I ought to buy one of them and try and include it from time to time. As you say, it has many niche uses, and i guess table time is the only way to find out how often they come up. Your math is off on the swamp troll threat ranges though. You cant add his 0.5" melee range to his guns threat range. He charges 8 or 10 inches, and shoots another 8 or 12. No half inches involved Do you play less than 5 heavies in your PoD lists if you want to include these, or do you skimp on support instead?
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
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Post by skurkious on Mar 17, 2017 19:02:28 GMT
I've run 3 pyres in a few games with Horgle2. Being able to charge models on fire for free allows them to use their animus and hit relatively hard. Add in the feat and you can take out a heavy with some luck. There gun is mediocre but a decent threat and they still make good damage sinks.
Swamp trolls are awesome but I do find a hard time fitting them in. Dual attack is great and drag can be a game changer. Their animus is more useful now that concealment isn't ignored by everything. I really like them with Gunny for getting two drags a turn. Snipe is nice on them but not mandatory.
Slag - These guys are obvious, if you can setup the right matchups they are great. Remember they work against circle wold armies too.
Night - I have not run these guys yet but agree that running them in a battlegroup heavy army as harriers/meat shields seems decent. They are cheap and if you can use there tricks effective. Grim2 and Grissel1 seems to be obvious choices for them. Gotta remember they are our only model with inherent stealth too.
Winter - Gunny makes them useful as guided fire is amazing with crit sprays. Their animus is situationally useful if you can make them hard to kill(ie Doomie3 or Ragnor). I think boostable sprays in general are always good to have on hand.
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Post by grabsnikk on Mar 17, 2017 19:47:35 GMT
ArcauxStorm Trolls can no longer cause disruption.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Mar 17, 2017 20:03:23 GMT
Arcaux Storm Trolls can no longer cause disruption. its claws have crit disruption
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Post by starwoof on Mar 17, 2017 22:14:16 GMT
I don't have my cards with me but I'm pretty sure a swamp troll can move, drag something, then throw it. That's so janky it has to be useful somehow.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Mar 17, 2017 23:06:23 GMT
I don't have my cards with me but I'm pretty sure a swamp troll can move, drag something, then throw it. That's so janky it has to be useful somehow. From my understanding a throw requires a model to give up all of its initials, both melee and ranged and so the moment you lose the ability to power attack.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Mar 17, 2017 23:12:46 GMT
Great read! I totally forgot about the Swamp troll. I ought to buy one of them and try and include it from time to time. As you say, it has many niche uses, and i guess table time is the only way to find out how often they come up. Your math is off on the swamp troll threat ranges though. You cant add his 0.5" melee range to his guns threat range. He charges 8 or 10 inches, and shoots another 8 or 12. No half inches involved Do you play less than 5 heavies in your PoD lists if you want to include these, or do you skimp on support instead? I usually run 4 heavies as any more than that feels like Overkill. I also like to make one of the heavies a Bomber. I'm currently playing: Grissel2 - Mountain King - Bomber - Axer - Storm or Slag - Swamp Min Stone + UA Dhunian Knot Shaman Shaman Whelps Janissa and Doomy1 - Mulg - Bomber - Mauler - EBDT - Axer - Storm Max Stone + UA Whelps Shaman Shaman Janissa
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