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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 29, 2017 14:34:34 GMT
The most logical replacement would be inhospitable ground. Nobody is ever getting that spell on a focus 7 caster especially not with access to the squire for 16" out. That's practically the entire board. Irusk2 has 7 focus...
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 29, 2017 17:24:22 GMT
Nobody is ever getting that spell on a focus 7 caster especially not with access to the squire for 16" out. That's practically the entire board. Irusk2 has 7 focus... Do we really need to preface every statement with "in MK3"? Thing is I could see a Fury/Focus 5 caster getting that ability in MK3. Given the direction for toning those kinds of things down though I don't think you'll ever see it on a focus 6+ caster ever again.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 29, 2017 17:59:09 GMT
Do we really need to preface every statement with "in MK3"? Thing is I could see a Fury/Focus 5 caster getting that ability in MK3. Given the direction for toning those kinds of things down though I don't think you'll ever see it on a focus 6+ caster ever again. Well, yeah. You should give context when you say what you said. Because, without context you are wrong. You made a claim that something was impossible. I posted a FACT which proves you wrong. Now, maybe you hold the opinion that Haley1 getting inhospitable ground is unlikely. And maybe it is unlikely. but it would be a much better spell for Haley to have, and for opponents to counter. I still prefer turning Temporal Barrier into an offensive upkeep: 3foc, rng 8, target non-warcaster non-warlock model/unit suffers -2def and cannot run or charge. Nice and simple, is about as powerful as similar debuff upkeeps like Refuge, crippling grasp, and calamity. And give her an ability: "The first offensive spell Haley casts during her activation costs 1 less than normal". But hey, that's just wish listing. Those 2 things would make her a fun little spell slinger with some real punch. It might
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 29, 2017 18:29:08 GMT
No charge to something doesn't prevent run and engage with your dudes.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 29, 2017 18:31:32 GMT
No charge to something doesn't prevent run and engage with your dudes. Are you referring to the offensive upkeep I suggested? I said that the spell would stop running and charging. It's meant to be cast on enemy models. Also, the only dudes that we really didn't want engaged were gun mages in MKII. They have gunfighter now, so even if our infantry gets engaged we still get to kill them.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 30, 2017 0:19:53 GMT
No charge to something doesn't prevent run and engage with your dudes. Are you referring to the offensive upkeep I suggested? I said that the spell would stop running and charging. It's meant to be cast on enemy models. Also, the only dudes that we really didn't want engaged were gun mages in MKII. They have gunfighter now, so even if our infantry gets engaged we still get to kill them. Trencher Infantry always needs to be out of the engagement.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 30, 2017 1:50:23 GMT
Are you referring to the offensive upkeep I suggested? I said that the spell would stop running and charging. It's meant to be cast on enemy models. Also, the only dudes that we really didn't want engaged were gun mages in MKII. They have gunfighter now, so even if our infantry gets engaged we still get to kill them. Trencher Infantry always needs to be out of the engagement. I'm not sure I agree with you there. Even at unboosted pow 9, they still kill arm 15 single box infantry on average. It's not good for them to be jammed, but by the time that they are, they've had a round of shooting already.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 30, 2017 3:34:41 GMT
Trencher Infantry always needs to be out of the engagement. I'm not sure I agree with you there. Even at unboosted pow 9, they still kill arm 15 single box infantry on average. It's not good for them to be jammed, but by the time that they are, they've had a round of shooting already. With old Temporal Barrier, it provided effective 2" more distance and allow them to shoot one more turn against many enemy, for many melee jacks with Reach and melee units has around 10" melee threat range by charge. But because they need more 2" to charge after struck by hails of military rifle bullets, Trencher Infantry have one more turn to shoot. Although Trencher Infantry have decent MAT and Brutal Charge, but their melee P+S is not good as the armor cracker by default(no one expect it, though) so melee attack is always the last resort. Not to mention that most combatant can kill fragile ARM 15 model without a damage box, and for units the must charge first or can't cause much damage so engaged by the enemy in the enemy turn and cannot charge nor shoot makes them worthless.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 30, 2017 20:43:37 GMT
The most logical replacement would be inhospitable ground. Nobody is ever getting that spell on a focus 7 caster especially not with access to the squire for 16" out. That's practically the entire board. I think you mean Irusk 1 is 14" control, but Haley 1 is 16". Its true, but pp are also considering wind blast on a caster with a 18" control area.
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ghoek
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by ghoek on Mar 31, 2017 4:33:10 GMT
Why was Haley1 nerfed? I offer this as evidence:
Theme: Storm Division 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Captain Victoria Haley - WJ: +27 - Squire - PC: 0 - Hurricane - PC: 39
Captain Arlan Strangewayes - PC: 0 Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 4 - Firefly - PC: 8 Stormblade Captain - PC: 5 - Firefly - PC: 8
Silver Line Stormguard - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Stormblade Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 5 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 Stormsmith Grenadiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
Alright, for starters, her feat turn with this list is better than Nemo3's. Put Deadeye on the Stormblades, pop feat, then watch the fun as SLSG put out two 5" AOEs of +2 electric damage, Fireflies activate and spread their Ionization for another +2 damage and shoot twice at up to +4 electric damage, then Hurricane shoots three times at POW 20 with knockdown, just with his electric guns. But the fun has only begun, because the Stormblade Gunners will get 3 shots each with 3 dice, then 3 more normal shots, and anything they hit will be autohit by the rest of unit. That's 16 shots at POW 18, autohitting. On average dice, they will likely take two ARM 20 colossals off the table by themselves. Somewhere in there the Grenadiers can chuck 6 grenades, choosing whatever effect they want, including residual electric AOE's that can be POW 14 against models hit by the SLSG AOE and in FF's ionization.
To add insult to injury, this is probably happening on Turn 2. Between her own AS, Jr's AS, and the Storm Blade mini feat, opponents would have a hard time killing enough beforehand to limit the damage. If your opponent's stuff is too high DEF to just shoot, you can hack them to death with charging Stormblades then have the Fireflies shoot them with buffed eleaps and have Haley chain lightning everything.
Now imagine this list with 1 more jack point (enough to reconfigure and fit a Storm Strider or Storm Lances, I discovered, among other things) and -2 SPD out to 18", stacked with the Grenadier's -2 SPD grenades. Whatever doesn't die can't move, and just waits a turn to get slaughtered. It's nasty in it's current incarnation, but it would be insane with how Haley1 was previously.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 31, 2017 5:38:55 GMT
As a dedicated Haley1 gamer... is it really an issue? First it is very difficult to deliver Silver Line to the proper location at the first place, for they are killed by the bullets and are have short range. Else you need to put AS on them.... If you really need for the more Electricity damage, you better go Aiyana&Holt+Murdoch.
Although I have delivered Stormblade Infantry with Haley1 many times and opt to shoot twice.... but only a Leader of Silver Line can shoot the debuff shot so positioning seems difficult as well even consider a model with Tactician. In the most times only add Firefly is enough and you better take some gunners by the same point as well, such as add two Arcane Tempest Riflemans for 2 points cheaper than them.
Grenadiers have very short range so it is hard to say that they are effective either. If you want for a jamming unit, go Sword Knights or Press Gangers.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 31, 2017 15:49:13 GMT
Why was Haley1 nerfed? I offer this as evidence: Theme: Storm Division 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Captain Victoria Haley - WJ: +27 - Squire - PC: 0 - Hurricane - PC: 39 Captain Arlan Strangewayes - PC: 0 Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 4 - Firefly - PC: 8 Stormblade Captain - PC: 5 - Firefly - PC: 8 Silver Line Stormguard - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Stormblade Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 5 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 Stormsmith Grenadiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Alright, for starters, her feat turn with this list is better than Nemo3's. Put Deadeye on the Stormblades, pop feat, then watch the fun as SLSG put out two 5" AOEs of +2 electric damage, Fireflies activate and spread their Ionization for another +2 damage and shoot twice at up to +4 electric damage, then Hurricane shoots three times at POW 20 with knockdown, just with his electric guns. But the fun has only begun, because the Stormblade Gunners will get 3 shots each with 3 dice, then 3 more normal shots, and anything they hit will be autohit by the rest of unit. That's 16 shots at POW 18, autohitting. On average dice, they will likely take two ARM 20 colossals off the table by themselves. Somewhere in there the Grenadiers can chuck 6 grenades, choosing whatever effect they want, including residual electric AOE's that can be POW 14 against models hit by the SLSG AOE and in FF's ionization. To add insult to injury, this is probably happening on Turn 2. Between her own AS, Jr's AS, and the Storm Blade mini feat, opponents would have a hard time killing enough beforehand to limit the damage. If your opponent's stuff is too high DEF to just shoot, you can hack them to death with charging Stormblades then have the Fireflies shoot them with buffed eleaps and have Haley chain lightning everything. Now imagine this list with 1 more jack point (enough to reconfigure and fit a Storm Strider or Storm Lances, I discovered, among other things) and -2 SPD out to 18", stacked with the Grenadier's -2 SPD grenades. Whatever doesn't die can't move, and just waits a turn to get slaughtered. It's nasty in it's current incarnation, but it would be insane with how Haley1 was previously. So Haley1 was harshly nerfed because she could kind of make two very weak units (silver line and grenadiers) ALMOST worth playing? If you can somehow deliver all of that stuff and get it to work then your opponent let it happen. As another player who has used Haley1 plenty, I know that the list you have there would not function on the table as it does in theory.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 31, 2017 19:05:26 GMT
Why was Haley1 nerfed? I offer this as evidence: Theme: Storm Division 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Captain Victoria Haley - WJ: +27 - Squire - PC: 0 - Hurricane - PC: 39 Captain Arlan Strangewayes - PC: 0 Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 4 - Firefly - PC: 8 Stormblade Captain - PC: 5 - Firefly - PC: 8 Silver Line Stormguard - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Stormblade Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 5 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner - PC: 2 Stormsmith Grenadiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Alright, for starters, her feat turn with this list is better than Nemo3's. Put Deadeye on the Stormblades, pop feat, then watch the fun as SLSG put out two 5" AOEs of +2 electric damage, Fireflies activate and spread their Ionization for another +2 damage and shoot twice at up to +4 electric damage, then Hurricane shoots three times at POW 20 with knockdown, just with his electric guns. But the fun has only begun, because the Stormblade Gunners will get 3 shots each with 3 dice, then 3 more normal shots, and anything they hit will be autohit by the rest of unit. That's 16 shots at POW 18, autohitting. On average dice, they will likely take two ARM 20 colossals off the table by themselves. Somewhere in there the Grenadiers can chuck 6 grenades, choosing whatever effect they want, including residual electric AOE's that can be POW 14 against models hit by the SLSG AOE and in FF's ionization. To add insult to injury, this is probably happening on Turn 2. Between her own AS, Jr's AS, and the Storm Blade mini feat, opponents would have a hard time killing enough beforehand to limit the damage. If your opponent's stuff is too high DEF to just shoot, you can hack them to death with charging Stormblades then have the Fireflies shoot them with buffed eleaps and have Haley chain lightning everything. Now imagine this list with 1 more jack point (enough to reconfigure and fit a Storm Strider or Storm Lances, I discovered, among other things) and -2 SPD out to 18", stacked with the Grenadier's -2 SPD grenades. Whatever doesn't die can't move, and just waits a turn to get slaughtered. It's nasty in it's current incarnation, but it would be insane with how Haley1 was previously. This is heavy theorycraft of some well known synergies that still didn't made anyone enthusiast to play Silverline or Granadiers anyway. In a real table, putting out that synergies is very hard, expecially since silverline dies like flies to shooting even with AS on. I can hardly see this as an explaination on the nerf. Wanting to stealth buff Cryx (that was in difficulty) and synergies with Hurricane are a lot more likely the cause of the nerf. That said, even if a change was really necessary, Haley1 power level would have required a side step, not an heavy nerf. Everyone would have been fine losing the -2 SPD (totally please, don't leave that ridiculus 8" range useless-suicidal debuff), if they gave her something different in return. Instead they just decided to directly heavily nerf a middle-tier caster, removing his unique ability and putting it in a situation where you have no reason to play her over other similar casters in faction since she hasn't any niche. They avoided to explain saying that the reason was "possible future releases interactions", but still we haven't seen anything that synergizes so well with Haley1 to make it necessary an un-compensate heavy nerf, and even if that thing will come out two years from now (I seriously doubt, but maybe), then it would have been better to nerf Haley1 after that release, not months or years ahead putting an iconic caster on the shelf for all that time.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 1, 2017 2:57:51 GMT
If I made the lists if TB is fixed properly, then these would be much better; conflictchamber.com/#b11b7EeO9kakfMfMaj9k9k9f9f9U9VCygnar Army - 74 / 75 points (Haley 1) Captain Victoria Haley [+27] - Dynamo [18] - Hunter [11] - Squire [5] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Journeyman Warcaster [4] - Hunter [11] - Hunter [11] Horgenhold Artillery Corps [6] Horgenhold Artillery Corps [6] Trencher Infantry (max) [16] - Trencher Infantry Officer & Sniper [5] It is just want to crack armor in distance. Combined with CRA and armor cracking guns, you can cripple about two heavies quite easily. It will be difficult a bit to protect artillery corps, but you can opt to make some distance between them and the enemy. With accuracy fix a Horgenhold Artillery Corps makes similar damage output with a Hunter, even consider they can't benefit by Feat:Blitz still they are the cost effcient option over many faction models. conflictchamber.com/#b11b7EeO9kakfMaj9cao7zadadCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points (Haley 1) Captain Victoria Haley [+27] - Dynamo [18] - Hunter [11] - Squire [5] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Journeyman Warcaster [4] - Firefly [8] Major Katherine Laddermore [8] Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [4] Storm Lances (max) [20] Storm Lances (max) [20] Else you can play this. Two units of Storm Lances can make 20 shots and make effective 13" with the enemy if you count SPD-2 of old Temporal Barrier. Although Stormblade Infantry have more body per points.... RNG 8&Reposition[3"] makes Storm Lances more better. conflictchamber.com/#b11b7EeO9c9kakfMfMaj9k7z9f9fa5a6a9Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points (Haley 1) Captain Victoria Haley [+27] - Dynamo [18] - Firefly [8] - Hunter [11] - Squire [5] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Journeyman Warcaster [4] - Hunter [11] Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [4] Horgenhold Artillery Corps [6] Horgenhold Artillery Corps [6] Stormblade Infantry [10] - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [5] - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (3) [6] But if you really want to do, I recommend this.
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luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163
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Post by luckgod84 on Apr 1, 2017 13:15:42 GMT
I have been doing well with this list. Deals with ghost fleet and any other dude spam well. Also controls well
War Room Army
Cygnar - Ghostbusters
Theme: Sons of the Tempest 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Captain Victoria Haley - WJ: +27 - Defender - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Defender - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Gun Mage Captain Adept - PC: 0 Gun Mage Captain Adept - PC: 0 Arcane Tempest Rifleman - PC: 0 Arcane Tempest Rifleman - PC: 4
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages - Leader & 5 Grunts: 11 - Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer - PC: 4 - Sentinel - PC: 8 Arcane Tempest Gun Mages - Leader & 5 Grunts: 11 - Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer - PC: 4 Black 13th Strike Force - Lynch, Ryan, & Watts: 10 Tempest Blazers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18
THEME: Sons of the Tempest ---
GENERATED : 03/27/2017 23:39:25 BUILD ID : 2039.17-03-16
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