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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 17, 2017 21:35:18 GMT
I think Average is their goal now a days on casters.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 17, 2017 21:39:57 GMT
I didn't take into account the lost charge distance, but I still feel he is as viable with the changes to how Focus works now. He can support way more jacks while still being a killing machine and camping focus is not nearly as much protection as it used to be. Most casters lost a ton of threat range and a lot of place effects don't even let you make attacks afterwards. I still think he is good at his role, but most people just don't want to build lists around assassination now a days.
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Post by Havock on Mar 17, 2017 22:28:36 GMT
This is a decent analogy of what Caine2 is.Having toyed with him a little, he needs little support: Some rangers, Reinholdt, GMCA. Make sure yor army can pry open the lines, that means you need a melee presence. -Gallant is kek with him; DEF15 dodge heavy will give your opponent fits -Sword knights are cheap and can easily mess up a 'jack or beast that would otherwise be tricky to deal with, work well with Dancing Gallant. Mind, that was pre-nerf so he was basically your shooting element and removed entire units per turn. This was Firetrucking dumb. I was not-that-sure about Ace, yes shadowfire is neat but... It's kind of expensive. I'd rather have another heavy to draw out the pieces otherwise reserved for screening their caster.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 18, 2017 11:53:53 GMT
When I used to play the Caines, I almost always took melee support because Caine could provide the ranged I would need. For the most part, I still think this is accurate. I might bring a charger or two with Caine2, but he needs support in melee. I find the humble Ironclades to be great with him because of their knock down and cheap points cost. I also really like Hammersmiths for clearing charge lanes. Throw in a unit of Trenchers for some clouds and it's pretty resilient.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 19, 2017 23:15:16 GMT
I would just like to reiterate how dogganm hard it is to make a list i'm happy with using this caster (caine3). Though he only has a few less points than some of the other "low WJ point" caster, man, it makes so much difference. I just feel like i can never get all the things i want int, and when taking large point sink items like Trenchers or Stormlances it even harder.
I also am having some difficulty settling on the number of jacks. On paper he looks like he wants 5 ish, but I honestly don't think he has the focus support for that many. I may start playing around with 4 jack builds. The issue this causes me is that if i'm doing a four jack build, if i'm running trenchers i want 3 grenadiers, so the fourth i'd like to be a heavy (cyclone / dynamo / Avenger), but then i'm not running chargers which feels like a hamstring. If i'm not running trenchers, then i'm usually taking a pair of chargers and then a mix from there.
Anywho... just wondering if anyone else is as frustrated with this caster at list building step. I can honestly say this is the first caster i've ever played where no matter what i do i don't feel like i can get the "shtick of the list" feeling 100%. I'm always leaving something i consider pivotal at home.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 19, 2017 23:30:34 GMT
I would just like to reiterate how dogganm hard it is to make a list i'm happy with using this caster (caine3). Though he only has a few less points than some of the other "low WJ point" caster, man, it makes so much difference. I just feel like i can never get all the things i want int, and when taking large point sink items like Trenchers or Stormlances it even harder. I also am having some difficulty settling on the number of jacks. On paper he looks like he wants 5 ish, but I honestly don't think he has the focus support for that many. I may start playing around with 4 jack builds. The issue this causes me is that if i'm doing a four jack build, if i'm running trenchers i want 3 grenadiers, so the fourth i'd like to be a heavy (cyclone / dynamo / Avenger), but then i'm not running chargers which feels like a hamstring. If i'm not running trenchers, then i'm usually taking a pair of chargers and then a mix from there. Anywho... just wondering if anyone else is as frustrated with this caster at list building step. I can honestly say this is the first caster i've ever played where no matter what i do i don't feel like i can get the "shtick of the list" feeling 100%. I'm always leaving something i consider pivotal at home. I think that with his lack of points playing him out of theme is difficult. With Heavy metal you get up to 17 free points that are a blessing for him, expecially if you chose your jacks well balancing his focus starviness with the potential of his feat even without boosting.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 20, 2017 0:02:56 GMT
That's true, i haven't given him a go in theme yet. Thing is, I hate theme lists. That said those 17 points are a godsend for sure. I'll have to think if its worth giving up what you have to give up for them though.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 20, 2017 0:14:18 GMT
That's true, i haven't given him a go in theme yet. Thing is, I hate theme lists. That said those 17 points are a godsend for sure. I'll have to think if its worth giving up what you have to give up for them though. Yeah, I'm not particulary fond of this whole "just free points theme forces" too... But you know, they say "If you got only lemons, you have to make a lemonade."
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 20, 2017 1:42:39 GMT
I've tried Caine 3 a few times and I feel that he's really close to being tournament viable but falls down at the finish line:
1. Why is he 20 damn Warjack points? 2. Why are Ryan and watts so easy to kill? 3. Why are his shot types so bad?
A slight increase in the above would really help. I like his spells, I like that he has locomotion for late game threat extensions, I like mage sight.
I don't like how weak Caine himself feels. He brings the least powerful shots in the unit and I use him to start off combos, but I dont get any awesome feeling for shooting with Caine.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 20, 2017 11:42:20 GMT
I saw somewhere that someone had wished Caine, Watts and Ryan had a shot type that gave a free charge to battlegroup participants. That is a pretty great idea for them and helps out with the mid game situations where the lines are going to collide / focuse efficiency. With locomotion you could actually set up some pretty interesting situations with that, if it were a thing. It would also reward a more balanced approach to list building (blow feat early, loco back if necessary, set up loco+free charge turn hopefully) giving a sort of ability to play a ping-pong style.
I do agree though, he's so close to being an incredible caster but there's just a couple elements missing. Unfortunately i can't put my finger on exactly "what", and due to that its hard to say if its the kind of thing that future releases can "fix" or not. The biggest issues i have are points economy and focus efficiency. Problem is it's hard to see them releasing more economical warjacks he'll like to bring than already exist (i mean... consider the charger and the grenadier in a trencher oriented list...), or getting more focus efficiency available for all lists seeing as we have Arlan and Squire. I also think that flicker should be 3", personally as a signature spell.
One thing i will say is that with the feat i understand why they don't give him more offensively oriented attack types. One interesting and cool interaction is that if you take a master gunner along with Caine, if you don't need to witchmark or blackpenny (which if you have to BP, use the other guys...), Caine3 can be effective RAT11-13 if you have the MG use artillerist on him. With points being at a premium with him i have not run rangers almost at all, so its a cheap way to get very accurate shooting with Caine3. One very effective thing has been so far to use Watts and Ryan to shadowfire things in the way (if there's just one i typically use watts so i can delivery ryans shots at a higher payload).
Thing is, if this doesn't kill the target, you're usually toast, but i've found that a common theme when playing caine3. Once i use my feat, either i've caused atrocious casualties and i'm safe from reprisal, or I interdict effectively with my other models (which thankfully due to the nature of the feat and Caine3 having to go "first" to get the most out of it, you have an opportunity to do just that if Caine and crews run goes badly), or i'm flat out dead.
Anywho... ultimately i agree. He's so close to being great, but just not quite there. Still fun to play though.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 20, 2017 12:02:20 GMT
Artillerist only works on the first shot, so hope those 4 points are worth it for that 1 Rat 11 attack
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 20, 2017 12:06:21 GMT
Shit, you know what, you're dogganm right. I have almost always used it with AOE jacks (in fairness, mostly the avenger, i seldom use it in my lists with grenadiers as those lists don't tend to want for accuracy to begin with), so i completely forgot about that.
This also means i cheated the Firetruck out of my last opponent accidentally, which i'll have to let him know. Wouldn't have changed the outcome too much as it was the difference of "don't roll snakeyes" to "need 5's", and i didn't roll a single 4 or less on the run, but still. I like being above the board with this kind of stuff.
Well there goes that idea. I could still see it being worth it if you take grenadiers or an avenger or whatever, but that is going to make me much less likely to bring him along with Caine3.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 20, 2017 12:44:21 GMT
I played Caine 2 an awful lot in Mk 2, and a fair bit at the start of Mk 3, I can understand people saying 'just play him like you did in Mk 2' however as others have pointed out the game has changed around him to the extent where that statement is not true anymore. Imho the things that have changed the most for Caine 2 have nothing to do with his cards.
1) no Squire and Reinholdt means 1 less pow 21 shot on feat turn 2) 3" off his max threat due to no charging your own stuff 3) Aiyana going down to magic 7 and becoming 50% more expensive 4) Eiryss 2 no longer being able to drop defensive upkeeps automatically 5) heavies becoming relatively cheaper and more numerous means that his feat is much less of an attrition swing 6) Trench Buster losing Girded
All of the changes about have created a climate in which Caine 2 is just not that much of an attractive option anymore. If you want good army support you should look elsewhere, if you want a great ranged assassination then Caine 3 or Sloan can offer that as well, and arguable do it better.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 21, 2017 20:17:08 GMT
I would just like to reiterate how dogganm hard it is to make a list i'm happy with using this caster (caine3). Though he only has a few less points than some of the other "low WJ point" caster, man, it makes so much difference. I just feel like i can never get all the things i want int, and when taking large point sink items like Trenchers or Stormlances it even harder. I also am having some difficulty settling on the number of jacks. On paper he looks like he wants 5 ish, but I honestly don't think he has the focus support for that many. I may start playing around with 4 jack builds. The issue this causes me is that if i'm doing a four jack build, if i'm running trenchers i want 3 grenadiers, so the fourth i'd like to be a heavy (cyclone / dynamo / Avenger), but then i'm not running chargers which feels like a hamstring. If i'm not running trenchers, then i'm usually taking a pair of chargers and then a mix from there. Anywho... just wondering if anyone else is as frustrated with this caster at list building step. I can honestly say this is the first caster i've ever played where no matter what i do i don't feel like i can get the "shtick of the list" feeling 100%. I'm always leaving something i consider pivotal at home. I think that with his lack of points playing him out of theme is difficult. With Heavy metal you get up to 17 free points that are a blessing for him, expecially if you chose your jacks well balancing his focus starviness with the potential of his feat even without boosting. You can't ever get more than 13 free points with Caine3 in Heavy Metal, because at most you get a free solo for every 25 points of Warjacks, and a Caine list can bring at most 95 points worth of warjacks, meaning maximum 3 solos (or SK Command Attachment). That said, Heavy Metal is the way that I play him. He's one of the few warcasters that can accomplish his primary goals with an entirely battlegroup focused list.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 21, 2017 20:20:44 GMT
I saw somewhere that someone had wished Caine, Watts and Ryan had a shot type that gave a free charge to battlegroup participants. That is a pretty great idea for them and helps out with the mid game situations where the lines are going to collide / focuse efficiency. With locomotion you could actually set up some pretty interesting situations with that, if it were a thing. It would also reward a more balanced approach to list building (blow feat early, loco back if necessary, set up loco+free charge turn hopefully) giving a sort of ability to play a ping-pong style. I do agree though, he's so close to being an incredible caster but there's just a couple elements missing. Unfortunately i can't put my finger on exactly "what", and due to that its hard to say if its the kind of thing that future releases can "fix" or not. The biggest issues i have are points economy and focus efficiency. Problem is it's hard to see them releasing more economical warjacks he'll like to bring than already exist (i mean... consider the charger and the grenadier in a trencher oriented list...), or getting more focus efficiency available for all lists seeing as we have Arlan and Squire. I also think that flicker should be 3", personally as a signature spell. One thing i will say is that with the feat i understand why they don't give him more offensively oriented attack types. One interesting and cool interaction is that if you take a master gunner along with Caine, if you don't need to witchmark or blackpenny (which if you have to BP, use the other guys...), Caine3 can be effective RAT11-13 if you have the MG use artillerist on him. With points being at a premium with him i have not run rangers almost at all, so its a cheap way to get very accurate shooting with Caine3. One very effective thing has been so far to use Watts and Ryan to shadowfire things in the way (if there's just one i typically use watts so i can delivery ryans shots at a higher payload). Thing is, if this doesn't kill the target, you're usually toast, but i've found that a common theme when playing caine3. Once i use my feat, either i've caused atrocious casualties and i'm safe from reprisal, or I interdict effectively with my other models (which thankfully due to the nature of the feat and Caine3 having to go "first" to get the most out of it, you have an opportunity to do just that if Caine and crews run goes badly), or i'm flat out dead. Anywho... ultimately i agree. He's so close to being great, but just not quite there. Still fun to play though. Just FYI, Watts does not have Shadow Fire as an attack type.
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