skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
|
Post by skurkious on Mar 6, 2017 17:38:55 GMT
Has anyone run one in the new edition? I did in one game and it didn't do a whole lot but take up space. The additional durability is kind of nice but its sooooo expensive. I really want to play mine, I just never seem to have the points to fit it in.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Mar 6, 2017 17:41:25 GMT
I've called in an expert
|
|
|
Post by unmitigated on Mar 6, 2017 18:00:04 GMT
did someone call me?
So, here's why the war wagon is bonkers:
Yes, it's 18 points. Yes, you have to pay for it out of "real" points and not your free WBP. Ok, we got those out of the way.
The War Wagon (henceforth abbreviated as the WW) does a number of things quite well. First, it has an excellent threat range; at SPD 7, with Dual Attack, Trample, and native Pathfinder, it can threaten 22" with the Pounder cannon, and 18" with the spray, and a walking threat of 7.5" with the mount attack.
On a charge, you have the same 10.5" mount threat, but you get the very powerful Line Breaker ability which means that all mount attacks you make (other than walking mount attacks) are going to be boosted to-hit, pushing you into reliably hitting DEF 16 models.
The mount attack has Momentum, a little-used rule that basically is absurd. It says that any small or medium-based model gets slammed d3(+2 because you're a huge base) inches in before the damage roll, and any large base model gets knocked down before damage. This means that charging into ranked enemies and stopping for impact attacks can potentially result in a positively monumental number of slam and collateral damage rolls. If your target is still standing at the end of your (boosted) impact attacks, you get to make your boosted mount attack as well, potentially putting P+S 14+2d6 and P+S 14+3d6 into the same (likely knocked down) model. This means that in most scenarios, when you charge into melee, you will be able to reposition 3" out of melee as your target should be knocked down (unless they are immune or you roll like a sausage).
So that's the summary of melee. Getting back to the gun, you say "but it's only RAT5!" I agree. On average you're missing normal-def troopers, and "just" deviating a 5" AoE on Pow 8. However, again, you have to take into account that troll armies are not without their support. Picture 2 war wagons under Calandra1 with a Dhunian Knot. You now have a pair of potential 5" AoE knockdown attacks, each of which can be rerolled twice (3 times under calandra's feat) - this is effectively hitting Def 14 more often than missing it. And be serious, more often than (k)not there is a low-def target nearby that you can shoot at such as an objective, a warjack, a construct, or even other battle engines (as a 5" aoe is just slightly larger than a 120mm base, so you will catch anything in B2B with it with the knockdown).
Also in-faction, we have Dozer and Smigg for the Lucky Shot animus bringing us to a RAT 7, as well as Gunnbjorn bringing us to RNG 16 on the Pounder, which makes the War Wagon a giant, accurate artillery piece that also happens to move upwards of 13" every turn (SPD 7 +3" trample +3" reposition).
Finally, the spray. While RAT5 POW12 is mildly unimpressive, remember a few things. Because of dual attack we can easily shoot at things that survived our melee (and are likely knocked down), potentially allowing for a regular POW14, a boosted POW 14, a POW 12, and a POW 16 that knocks down anything inside a 5" AoE around the target (and only damages us on 11+) on the same model. For 18 points and no fury use, as well as a ranged attack that can be relevant on the first turn of the game, that's a pretty good deal.
Some of our other casters also have powerful interactions with this model. Grissel1 for example lets us yo-yo charge between reposition and Hoof It, landing you right back where you started (or within 3" if the opponent is immune to knockdown, or again you have sausage hands), potentially setting up for another charge the following turn.
In summary, the War Wagon is one of our (if not the) longest native threat range pieces, that is relevant at every stage of the game, generates way more attacks than you might imagine on first blush, and takes many of our medium-power or niche buffs and turns them up to 11. It is a fantastic addition to any army and can easily play well in a build-around-me or a throw-me-in list. I highly recommend the wagon with the Grims, the Grissels, Calandra, and Gunny for best use, and if you can fit Dozer and Smigg, a 2nd one isn't unreasonable as a long range solution.
The War Wagon is one of our top shelf models that overperforms if you use all of the model, and gives you options to use much or all of it every turn. Thanks!
|
|
skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
|
Post by skurkious on Mar 6, 2017 20:09:12 GMT
Wow! Thanks for the reply. I totally agree with your points and it does seem like a super amazing model in a vacuum. By that I mean it seems great until you compare it to a bomber and then you start wondering. I think it would be a lot easier to fit it in if I was seeing more infantry in the local meta as well. While it mulches infantry it doesn't have the volume of attacks to take on Jack/Beast spam. You did kind of skip over its defensive tech though. With the added boxes and any support to its armor(stone, horgle, etc) it can hold a zone pretty solidly and cannot be removed easily.
|
|
|
Post by Permutation Servitor on Mar 7, 2017 2:05:37 GMT
|
|
|
Post by starwoof on Mar 7, 2017 5:08:53 GMT
Well I read this thread on my lunch break and I think I'm gonna pick up a wagon tomorrow. The model is GORGEOUS and knowing that the rules actually work makes it pretty much a must have for me. It'll be my first battle engine too!
|
|
|
War Wagon
Mar 7, 2017 10:37:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by ninjapete on Mar 7, 2017 10:37:29 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Mar 7, 2017 21:28:59 GMT
This post made me consider at least gluing together my WW. I still think that basically every list is better with a Bomber instead, but i sure wish the WW would be viable. Might give it a spin some time. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by Warsmith on Mar 7, 2017 21:41:40 GMT
I really used to love the War Wagon. It kind of was an all around good toolbox piece. I think the cost of it is off now. I feel like it is a 14 or 15 point piece. 18 is way too steep for it even with all that it does. Especially now that it's main target - infantry - is not seen as much if at all.
|
|
|
War Wagon
Mar 7, 2017 22:11:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by unmitigated on Mar 7, 2017 22:11:13 GMT
I disagree with its "main" prey being infantry iirc, I think medium based models are probably the highest value targets due to the slam (and thank you for correcting me on the power attack thing - I've definitely gotten that wrong recently). That makes it ideal at taking on light jacks and beasts in melee. As far as Jack heavy metas, the more 50mm bases you see, the more juicy pounder targets I see. Teaching your opponent not to keep models inside a 5" aoe from medium to low def large based models is a fine lesson and use of the wagon. To be honest, I feel like the WW gets misjudged because it is a piece that is relevant at every stage of the game, not just in the alpha or on an assassination run. It's a very versatile piece that is at its "best" when more than one of its "modes" are active but generally recoups it's points with smart play and gambits forcing your opponent to either open up to a knockdown pie plate or move in certain vectors.
|
|
|
Post by Warsmith on Mar 7, 2017 22:19:19 GMT
I understand what you're saying about medium based models, but even those seem to be less and less. Yes, popping a POW 16 on a heavy and knocking it down is cool, but for me at least they tend to stand up and destroy my wagon.
Don't get me wrong, I actually really like the War Wagon and have used it to good effect in MK2, but have found less use in MK3 where it kind of gets outshined by things like a Bomber that can just kill things outright instead of dealing some damage and tying up an enemy.
I will play it more and see if perhaps I'm missing something now.
|
|
|
Post by BlackcladElf on Mar 8, 2017 4:50:41 GMT
I'm trying this out tomorrow night as part of my quest to play each of our Warlocks 5 times in 2017:
Grissel Bloodsong, Marshal of the Kriels - Trollkin Runebearer - Dire Troll Bomber - Dire Troll Mauler - Troll Bouncer Long Riders (max) Krielstone Bearer and Stone Scribes (min) - Stone Scribe Elder War Wagon Horthol, Long Rider Hero
I'm likely to end up playing against Retribution, Menoth, or Mercenaries (specifically Magnus 1 or Drake McBain). I'll let y'all know how it goes! (I'm hoping to get my "wandering kriel" thread back up on here, but losing it when PP dumped the forums and having to start from scratch is...disheartening to say the least).
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Mar 8, 2017 10:43:45 GMT
I recently acquired one. I imagine I'll use it once we get a Cygnar Trained them with Bushwackers, Artillery etc.
At the moment it would require me to not play in Power of Dhunia and I don't really understand why I'd want to do that. It's the main reason I'm also not playing Madrak3 or Horgle2.
|
|
|
Post by starwoof on Mar 8, 2017 11:17:39 GMT
I did actually go and pick up a war wagon that I'm in the process of painting now. I'm trying to think of interesting ways to combo with it. Right now my mind is mostly set on Grissel2 and the crazy things she does for it. This is my first huge based model and I'm still trying to get my head around all the rules that are scattered all over the book. It is a warrior model, right? I know gargossals can't overtake, but can a war wagon? Specifically I'm thinking of Madrak2 feat. I can't find an answer to these questions in the rulebook.
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Mar 8, 2017 18:59:52 GMT
The WW is not a warrior model. It is a Battle Engine. Nothing prevents it from overtaking though.
|
|