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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 10, 2017 3:04:41 GMT
When you add their support they are a 30+ point unit. If you mean that should be their points before support then you really need perspective.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 10, 2017 4:56:26 GMT
I have said time again I think the Lances are easily a 30-35 pt unit as they are. So for you 5 Stormlances are worth 21 Stormblades? or 22 Trenchers? Or 10 Tempest Blazers? or 3 Ironclads? or 4,5 Fireflies? Come on... This kind of exagerations are exactly the things that put Cygnar players on the defensive when talking about Stormlances... It's already hard enough to admit that one of your unit is OP, but admitting it when those are the arguments is a pain.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 10, 2017 11:40:13 GMT
I have said time again I think the Lances are easily a 30-35 pt unit as they are. So for you 5 Stormlances are worth 21 Stormblades? or 22 Trenchers? Or 10 Tempest Blazers? or 3 Ironclads? or 4,5 Fireflies? Come on... This kind of exagerations are exactly the things that put Cygnar players on the defensive when talking about Stormlances... It's already hard enough to admit that one of your unit is OP, but admitting it when those are the arguments is a pain. To be fair, I think he's saying that he'd pay that much for them and Storm Lances do fill a lot of roles for their cost. In fairness to Cygnar players, I don't think that raising the points to that level is going to fix them in any meaningful way. As I have said before, the potential fix to Storm Lances is likely to be complex, because Cygnar is one of the more complex factions.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 10, 2017 12:53:38 GMT
What Spideredd said. I'm not saying make them that, it's what I'd be willing to pay for everything they bring to the table. They get more work done than a colossal for me in a lot of games.
I feel they should just be brought in line with Cav from the other factions and it would be a good thing. How that is done is completely up for debate.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 10, 2017 13:20:24 GMT
What Spideredd said. I'm not saying make them that, it's what I'd be willing to pay for everything they bring to the table. They get more work done than a colossal for me in a lot of games. I feel they should just be brought in line with Cav from the other factions and it would be a good thing. How that is done is completely up for debate. Your reasoning is flawed in the sense that most units actually get "more work done" than a Colossal if you just count damage. A 22 point full unit of Storm Blades can unleash 22x pow 15-14 attacks in charge, half of them boosted and the other half buffable by electro synergies, a thing that no Colossal is even close to match. What sells Colossals is not "work done", but durability and scenario presence, and Lances don't go even close to the durability of a Colossal. Again, you are practically saying that every single Lance is worth like a Firefly, that has Lightning Generator, can boost and buy attacks, buffs other units and himself, and is like four times more durable... At 30-35 points you wouldn't see a single Lance on the field forever. Probably already at 25 they would start to be overpriced. Consider that now they practically cost 15 points, everyone runs them in double unit, and still Cygnar isn't unbeatable. If your rasoning was correct, you would be practically saying that every Cygnar player is playing with 40 extra points over the opponents (since they get to pay two units 20 points less than what they are worth), a thing that is clearly untrue (otherwise they would have something like 95% win ratio)...
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 10, 2017 16:11:05 GMT
At 25 points, they would still trivialize the vast majority of models from many factions. That they are unbeatable has never been up for debate. I can build a list to beat anything. The fact that nearly every faction has to build such a list to deal with them regularly is the problem or that their existence dictates what is playable in a lot of factions (not the only offenders here btw). Bending the meta is a problem just like bending tourney wins, just the two don't always go hand in hand. I'm also a Circle player and feel the Sentry Stone has a similar effect.
With Lances in particular though, when compared to the other factions' Cav, they clearly come out quite a bit ahead of the curve for the pretty close to the same cost.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 10, 2017 20:36:03 GMT
At 25 points, they would still trivialize the vast majority of models from many factions. That they are unbeatable has never been up for debate. I can build a list to beat anything. The fact that nearly every faction has to build such a list to deal with them regularly is the problem or that their existence dictates what is playable in a lot of factions (not the only offenders here btw). Bending the meta is a problem just like bending tourney wins, just the two don't always go hand in hand. I'm also a Circle player and feel the Sentry Stone has a similar effect. With Lances in particular though, when compared to the other factions' Cav, they clearly come out quite a bit ahead of the curve for the pretty close to the same cost. Other factions often don't use their cavalry and ask them to be buffed. Please don't compare storm lances to units that are below par.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 10, 2017 22:03:45 GMT
At 25 points, they would still trivialize the vast majority of models from many factions. That they are unbeatable has never been up for debate. I can build a list to beat anything. The fact that nearly every faction has to build such a list to deal with them regularly is the problem or that their existence dictates what is playable in a lot of factions (not the only offenders here btw). Bending the meta is a problem just like bending tourney wins, just the two don't always go hand in hand. I'm also a Circle player and feel the Sentry Stone has a similar effect. With Lances in particular though, when compared to the other factions' Cav, they clearly come out quite a bit ahead of the curve for the pretty close to the same cost. Other factions often don't use their cavalry and ask them to be buffed. Please don't compare storm lances to units that are below par. Speaking only from the Protectorate point of view, with a little bit of Skorne (my wife's faction), I can't say that I've seen too many calls for buffs for either factions cavalry. I know that both Ferox and Vengers are used with the right casters (I'm not sure how many casters there are in the Protectorate that can get them to work, but I think it's about 1/3-1/2). As an aside, below par is good. Golf uses a fewest strokes to win and par is average, so if you complete the whole in less strokes than par, you've done well.
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Nyxu
Overseer
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 10, 2017 22:57:07 GMT
At 25 points, they would still trivialize the vast majority of models from many factions. That they are unbeatable has never been up for debate. I can build a list to beat anything. The fact that nearly every faction has to build such a list to deal with them regularly is the problem or that their existence dictates what is playable in a lot of factions (not the only offenders here btw). Bending the meta is a problem just like bending tourney wins, just the two don't always go hand in hand. I'm also a Circle player and feel the Sentry Stone has a similar effect. With Lances in particular though, when compared to the other factions' Cav, they clearly come out quite a bit ahead of the curve for the pretty close to the same cost. Other factions often don't use their cavalry and ask them to be buffed. Please don't compare storm lances to units that are below par. So, what can you compare lances to? Do we have a perfectly balanced baseline?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 10, 2017 23:35:30 GMT
Other factions often don't use their cavalry and ask them to be buffed. Please don't compare storm lances to units that are below par. So, what can you compare lances to? Do we have a perfectly balanced baseline? Sentinels, Idrians, deadrots, Winter guard rifles, piggybacks, anything that is a good model. Units are very difficult to compare to be a use there are a lot of variables to their effectiveness (as compared to solos and jacks who are more binary. I generally don't like comparisons between units, because units are very complicated to compare with, but it will happen regardless.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 10, 2017 23:43:02 GMT
Other factions often don't use their cavalry and ask them to be buffed. Please don't compare storm lances to units that are below par. Speaking only from the Protectorate point of view, with a little bit of Skorne (my wife's faction), I can't say that I've seen too many calls for buffs for either factions cavalry. I know that both Ferox and Vengers are used with the right casters (I'm not sure how many casters there are in the Protectorate that can get them to work, but I think it's about 1/3-1/2). As an aside, below par is good. Golf uses a fewest strokes to win and par is average, so if you complete the whole in less strokes than par, you've done well. Granted, ferox are the second best cav in the game and Vengers are third.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 11, 2017 4:28:09 GMT
At 25 points, they would still trivialize the vast majority of models from many factions. That they are unbeatable has never been up for debate. I can build a list to beat anything. The fact that nearly every faction has to build such a list to deal with them regularly is the problem or that their existence dictates what is playable in a lot of factions (not the only offenders here btw). Bending the meta is a problem just like bending tourney wins, just the two don't always go hand in hand. I'm also a Circle player and feel the Sentry Stone has a similar effect. With Lances in particular though, when compared to the other factions' Cav, they clearly come out quite a bit ahead of the curve for the pretty close to the same cost. Other factions often don't use their cavalry and ask them to be buffed. Please don't compare storm lances to units that are below par. I honestly have no response to this. I don't think I'm capable of communicating on this topic with you in any way..lol
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 11, 2017 5:24:48 GMT
Vengers are certainly not the third best cav, they are usually worse Uhlans and are almost always left behind in favor of Flamebringers. Also, I would personally rate Raptors above Vengers, but that's up for debate.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 11, 2017 6:12:27 GMT
Vengers are certainly not the third best cav, they are usually worse Uhlans and are almost always left behind in favor of Flamebringers. Also, I would personally rate Raptors above Vengers, but that's up for debate. I should have been more specific, I was talking about heavy cavalry rather than light cavalry which disqualifies Raptors and flamebringers. Uhlans are generally worse than Vengers due to less damage out of charge turns and no blessed. In general, though, both are of low quality in their respective factions but Vengers make more of an impact with high reclaimer than Uhlans ever do. If you can't do anything outside of your charge turn, you just aren't very good cav imo. In general the stat's of cavalry usage follow my opinion as far as I know.
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spideredd
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Post by spideredd on Mar 11, 2017 14:49:33 GMT
Vengers are certainly not the third best cav, they are usually worse Uhlans and are almost always left behind in favor of Flamebringers. Also, I would personally rate Raptors above Vengers, but that's up for debate. If you can't do anything outside of your charge turn, you just aren't very good cav imo. I would say this about most units, unless that charge is truly amazing. I'm not going to argue that Vengers aren't in a good place right now. I'd actually suggest their roughly where most units should be. Useful with some casters, but not with all. Do you have a link? I'm trying to find some that aren't just from DGI. I don't like to use only a single source for my data.
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